Unclean Beast - Late Game Balance

He mainly dominates end game due to his speed and if you were a good player you would realize that.  You need something to slow him down and something to make you faster.

Demigod is based entirely on counters, so if you up against a UB, chances are your team will need speed items and stuns.

you have to consider UB is a melee char so he shouldnt dominate midgame

poison is very strong but its not enough in the early mid fight to dominate

you should kill UB a bit more mid game when he gotta risk more being melee

i think the reason could be because of stacking HP items on demigods, it gets to the point where spell levels do not scale well against higher level demigods with 7k HP or more, then again that is only my opinion.

i think overall there should be a limit to the amount of hp items u get, it destroys the fun when you have a low kill/death ratio in a game(imo).

Don't let him (late game) be 3-4 levels above you and you're allies
because he can kill you and other ally demigod together with level advantage
(and probably equipment) in 10 sec.

If there is no level advantage and you're team know what
they're doing tactics will win the game

Didn't I just give you my Demigod coupon a week ago, and you are already on the forums telling people that they don't know how to play? You should listen to the OP, he knows what he is talking about. 

Perhaps tone down some of the big hp items and make up for it with armour or hp/s or other side effects. Its a pretty hard thing to balance...I have to say. Toning down the hp items somehow would allow skill to scale up more effectively late game (which is something ive seen people complaining about).

I think UB benefits from some late game item combo imbalances more then alot of other demigods.  But other then that, he seems fine. There are plenty of ways to deal with him late game with equally leveled and geared demigods.  He does get very nasty if he has a higher level or gear, but thats true in demigod in general.

I think it's a HP scaling issue. I consider TB to be one of the better late game heroes as I play him, but I simply could never chew through 8K HP unless the target was AFK.

Good Rook player level 18 with towers should win against UB unless
UB will take speed advantage and runaway.

What i've meant is with 2 good teams fighting against each other, the tacticts
will be the main reason for winning and not high level UB on late games.

I wouldnt mind seeing a limit on items to 1 per class (1 boot, 1 helmet, 1 chest, 1 glove, etc...)  This way a DG would still be able to customize itself, but not really stack 3 +HP/Armor chestpieces.  Its not really a problem, because any DG can do it.  I know my Rook usually has 8k+ mid game (level 15 or so) because of items.  I tend to not use towers much, so I dont need mana much either. 

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Although I've played mainly single player games (thanks to the inability to connect online), I think this observation is accuate, especially for single player games on hard mode that lasts for more than 15 mins.

Not every DG gets the same advantage in HP stacking.  The thing is that the UB can get very good speed and damage without too much effort in terms of items.  His only weakness is low HPs, so the standard thought is that yeah, hes fast and will hurt you, but you can kill him yourself very fast.  But he can patch that weakness with items late game, then you have a DG which is pretty fast, does a lot of damage, and is really hard to kill.  Many other DGs just cant reach that level of deadliness even late game.

I think that the idea of having a HP ceiling is a good one.  Just make it some constant factor of the original hitpoints each DG has.  That would allow something like say, a Rook, have a much higher HP cap than a UB.

Really its becoming pretty apparent that HP stacking is a bit overpowered.  I think that a very slight HP reduction on a lot of items might be in order too.  I personally find it a bit boring in games where everybody has HP stacked right away.  Nobody dies and the game just drags on.  I suppose some people will disagree, but thats how I see it.

Yes, scaling is a massive issue and a detriment to gameplay. There are few abilities/demigods who get much benefit out of doing anything but default attack late game.

The reason you see a lot of Unclean Beast is because he's the easiest Dark side demigod to learn. Torchbearer is much harder since he's dual form and fairly fragile.Queen of Thorns is also dual form and has trouble killing other demigods. Erebus is probably the next easiest Dark side god and he's a general with all kinds of considerations. By comparison Unclean Beast is extremely simple and easy to use.

At high levels Unclean Beast is no certainly no stronger than Oak, Queen of Thorns, Rook, or Sedna. Any of those demigods are far more difficult to kill and a much greater threat to your fortress. And Regulus is the best demigod killer in the game. Beast is pretty good at this too but a high level Regulus is ridiculous at killing enemy DGs.

If you let any demigod get a few levels on you or outspend you in gold he will be able to dominate you. I'd guess that's what's happening. I see more balance issues with Regulus and Oak than I do with anyone else. When I play Regulus most opponents cry like crazy (and I don't really blame them). At least with UB I can get a game going before players rage quit.

There is NO WAY that QoT, Rook, or Sedna are better very late game than a well played UB.  Thats just crazy talk.  Oak I'll give you, but thats a different issue.  1v1 a UB with equal money will beat a Reg even with Ash and Mageslayer late game if both are well played, and its a faster DG too (if the Reg has a mines build, probably neither is killing the other since the Reg can force the UB to not approach).  The big problem is that once a UB gets in close, you are dead.  Late game you had better not get anywhere near something they can teleport to or an angry UB is on top of you and then you are dead.  The stun and speed means you arent getting away and they will take you down FAST.  A Reg you can run against and they have no stuns and limited slowing ability.

I really question a lot of your statements.  You say that people cry right away when you play Reg, but you can go quite a while before crying with UB?  How does this make any sense?  UB is generally considered a far superior early game DG, while Reg doesnt get going until much later.

You dont see as much TB and QoT because they just arent as good in most situations as a well played UB.

its not a way to balance, its just a matter of a fact

being melee per se is a big disadvantage since you will be closer to enemies, closer to towers, far from your base etc etc

EVERY char can have about the same hp that will grant him a good survival  the point is that with UB you will have to get in melee and so risking more than regulus lets say and b4 lvl 10 or what is it you wont have the top speed etc etc

its not a big malus but its certainly an element to consider

if i know i m playing with noob vs good players i take regulus not UB since being ranged makes me less dependant on others skill

yeah i have the same problem thats why im playing with TB recently at least we have some fair game, when i get regulus its gameover at lvl 5 usually

Hps at higher levels are balanced out because you'll usually have stronger more damaging minions assisting you in battles (ie giants and catapults).  I find that hps at lower levels are balanced appropriately because you're only dealing with minotaurs.  Mid game the scaling of spells is appropriate with the hps that Demigods are running around with, even though the minions haven't scaled appropriately as everyone tries to amass the WS necessary to jump straight to Pults or Giants.  Late game I find that even though spells haven't progressed having even 8k+ hps isn't enough when giants are chewing through it. 

I find evasion and armor items (balanced with hps) to be more powerful late game as it allows you to wade through enemy waves to get that ninja kill. 

and that is solved with:

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/353515

I said that all those demigods are more difficult to kill and a greater threat to your fortress than Unclean Beast. That's absolutely true. I would guess that you missed my point because you're the kind of player who only thinks about whether or not you can kill the enemy Demigod or not. That's not what I'm talking about. Many games come down to who is able to penetrate the other team's base properly and those demigods are better at it than the Unclean Beast.

And don't underestimate the ability of online players to cry over anything. Players cry a lot. Just because you consider UB superior to something else doesn't mean that's the consensus.

sigh im sad that ppl only seem to think darkside dgs are op, yet they lose pantheon 90% of the time.

Except not many demigods can chew up hp like UB can with an unmitigated damage combo of spit and ooze. Add on attack speed buffs and well placed stun and even someone with 7k hp vs. an ub with equal hp will be in a world of trouble.

The major problem is the retarded amounts of health people can stack, on characters that shouldn't really have those hp levels. UB is a glass cannon melee dps, not a a tank. But with hp stacking, he can dish out insane amounts of damage, and absorb them as well.