Tortheldrin's UB Ooze build (no spit)

Bestial wrath can and will get you killed, and suck your mana while you're at it. It's not viable, and to boot, you're delaying crucial Diseased Claw and Inner Beast levels to get it. Ditch it. It's too obvious of an animation, people can and will run away from it, and it's MANA EXPENSIVE. You want all your Mana for Grasp the second it comes up.

Post Mortem isn't needed on an Ooze build. You already have Ooze for lane control, and it does it very very well. You want the Enhanced Attirubtes earlier, normally you can start picking them up around level 12. You'll really notice your HP and Mana begin to spike up.

Your item choices look OK but I question the choice of Doomspite over Slayer's Wraps. Slayer's Wraps are another crucial 10 HP a second for running Ooze, and critical hit chance is always excellent.

Favor item is pretty much always up for grabs, yeah. I've never experimented with Furious Blade or Poisoned Dagger: I love the early game 800 HP boost and 5 HP/s far far too much, and it's such a cheap Favor Item to get.

i agree with everything he said

You need Post mortem to get plague though, which can really add up the damage with ooze. Plague + ooze + auto attack is a nice combination. But you can't get plague without PM

the only thing plague is usefull for, is that your enemy without orb cant use his hol for 30sek. it isnt good dmg at all.

What an idiotic template. You're giving up 1.5k damage (damage you can inflict without even having to be next to your opponent) so you don't have to worry about mana? Lvl 10+ you don't even need mana items as long as you have a HOL and you can still spit twice and use bestial wrath.

But what do I care, I laugh every time I see an UB that doesn't take spit. Scratch that, I cry... I cry myself to sleep.

100% correct.

Horrible items and horrible skill progression. This is a huge step back from other Ooze build guides.

Considering spit UB loses to Ooze UB lategame when 1.5k spit actually comes into play... yeah, not that great.

Spit's really effective at level 4 and 7. At level 10... well, three spits doesn't matter much when you have 7k HP and are slowing the enemies autoattacks to a snails pace.

Not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. 3 spits = 3*1.5k damage=4.5k damage. Not that you'd spit more than twice per fight 90% of the time, but still. If the average build has 6k hp late game, that's still half your health. Additionally, it's great for harassing both early and late game, and it tears towers apart.

More importantly, why can't you use ooze AND spit??? Just max spit, ooze, innate attack/move speed, lvl 1 claw slowdown and bestial wrath and you're good to go.

Spit is good. Its great for buildings, and its great for early harassing. Yea maybe if you plan on playing a 3 hour game spit will end up being less then useful..but most games I play I dont even hit 20. If spit is good upt o level 10 that usually means its good for 2/3 of the game. Not having it WILL put you at a loss if the other team is playing ot win and not just playing to beef up their characters. (although I always play with enhanced towers and enhanced grunts now, so that also alters my opinions).

You also really can't say "Well ooze builds beat spit builds so ooze must be better". It's rock/paper/scissors. Most of the newbs grabbing spit and not ooze are grabbing full ranks of diseased claws, plauge, and frenzy. Truthfully you can get spit and ooze just fine. Ooze wins not because of its damage though. It beats spit builds because of the attack speed reduction. If someone with just spit fights someone with just ooze, the ooze then spit will do more magic dmg but the other UB will hit 40% slower. If a UB with spit/ooze fights a pure ooze with that many points in things like plague and inner beast, I promise the spit/ooze build will win.

Elarain is correct.  A UB with spit and ooze will beat a non-spit ooze build every time.  I played a game where I went up against a spit/ooze UB with an Ooze/beastial wrath build, and even though I significantly outgeared the other UB, he beat me every time (I had been beating him early game till it got to late game).  Since we both had ooze, coupled with armor, auto attacks weren't counting for much (even though I had ashkandor).  His unmitigated spit damage made all the difference.  So, at least from a UB vs UB point of view, spit is great even in the endgame.

Ooze generally works better against Generals, while Spit works better against Assassins. However, it's possible to get Spit AND Ooze, but will need some more mana gear, but if you can kill them faster, you won't need as much health.

Err.... what? Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Plus, if he had enough armor to where you weren't dealing much damage with AA's, you didn't outgear him very well. If you had beastial wrath, you were playing horribly anyway. If you had Ashkandor, you probably skimped on health/armor. So really, your play was at fault there, and anecdotal evidence is worthless. I could mention the numerous times I have beaten spit/Ooze UB's with my pure Ooze or pure Spit builds, but it really doesn't matter. I'm just going to point out real reasons Spit/Ooze can lose. Also, spit really isn't very great lategame; as UB, with a health flag I can have 8000 HP (and this is at level 14, so it's a reasonable lategame), 12k with a sigil of vitality up. Just to halfway kill me you need four spits, which is 4k mana, or two mana items as UB.

The thing is, Spit/Ooze can lose to pure Ooze for a variety of reasons.

Reason #1: Redundancy early-game. In the early game, just spitting on somebody is enough to scare them away. The Ooze points are being wasted (except for creeping, where it has use).

Reason #2: You don't have the HP for Oozing or the mana for spitting. Simply put, an Ooze UB will outlast you with HP and a spit UB will be able to spit more often (though I find that Spit UB does have more trouble with spit/ooze than a pure Ooze UB).

Reason #3: No flexibility. To get a spit/ooze build to level 10, you have all of one free point to spend on passives. You won't be able to keep foes within your reach, upgrade stats (which help), or go faster.

Reason #4: You live on a razor's edge. This is similar to #2, actually. Basically, by playing a hybrid build you have to gear up to be at *just* the right point where you have enough HP to tank an Ooze UB but also have enough mana to constantly spit. It's hard to do that. Too much mana, you get out-HPd. Too little mana, and the Ooze UB can out-DPS you (stats + high armor).

I admit a hybrid is useful, but to say that it's guaranteed to win is rather foolish.

The thing is, three spits is 4.5k damage. In that time, an Ooze UB gets off 4.2k damage with Ooze [well, a little less due to spit-stacking], has lowered your autoattacks to be 60% as effective as normal, and has much more HP than you. It's not particularly effective, and you will be out of mana or close to it after three. Spit is effective, but saying you have to take it is like saying you "need" circle of fire as TB: It's a good skill, but very overrated.

Also, your hybrid build is one of the worst I've seen. Not only is beastial wrath a worthless skill, but you won't be getting it until level 16-20 with your build, and you won't be getting any of the passives (besides one point in one) until level 11.

I should have mentioned that I'm talking late game.  Early game, yes, a hybrid build is usually too stretched to be able to stand up to a focused build.  But lategame (even up to level 19 or 20), Spit is much better than most people think, especially in a UBvsUB fight.  Even with just two spits, 3500-4000 (don't forget about putrid flow) points of unmitigated damage is enough to swing most fights.

That was the game I realized how bad beastial wrath was, I was testing to see if it was worth taking.  But my only other non-spit option would have been to take stats, and taking stats isn't going to swing a fight as much as taking spit will, late game, for a UB duel.

Those spits aren't going to mean anything if the other DG can remove it. And hps can mitigate it.

So other than the chance they've taken a symbol of purity as their favor item, what ways does a UB have to remove spit in a duel with another UB?  And since both UB's are using ooze, they won't be generating much hp/s.  Remember, I'm arguing a very narrow situation here (late game non-spit ooze UB vs. ooze/spit hybrid UB).

The point about removing spit was targeted more towards the general idea of it being good late game. I'm not saying it isn't, as it's great against buildings, but depending on spit is too risky for my taste.

As for a hybrid vs pure ooze, a hybrid build will have to skip out on many of the passive upgrades in order to keep both ooze and spit at their highest rank. In addition to that, a hybrid build will need both a +mana item or 2 to continously use spit and a few +health and +hps items to use ooze effectively. So overall, you will have both lower health and base stats than me, and despite the fact that you are causing more skill damage I still have the chance to outlast you, since damage isn't everything.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying spit or a hybrid build can't be effective. It's just that spit has a large number of counters and a hybrid build is less effective until at least late-game.

I agree a hybrid can be effective, but you are basically sacraficing all kill potential and a lot of combat potential until lategame.

I agree that early game, a hybrid build isn't very effective.  But after level 10, you can have ooze, diseased claws, and inner beast all maxed to that point.  If you have a heart of life and unbreakable boots at that point (both pretty good items for an ooze build), you can easily have enough mana to use both foul grasp and spit, without taking any other mana items. 

Basically what I'm getting around to arguing is spit is often worth taking over stats in the later levels of what was, up to that point, a pure ooze build (particularly if you're against another UB).  It makes you a lot more viable against buildings, provides DPS in your regular fights, and allows you to snag a few kills on runners.

Well, the downside of Ooze build is that you cant really harass anyone in early game. Plus if you are going attack somebody and they run to tower you can pretty much forget about killing them or risking yourself a death.

"You don't have the HP for Oozing or the mana for spitting. Simply put, an Ooze UB will outlast you with HP and a spit UB will be able to spit more often (though I find that Spit UB does have more trouble with spit/ooze than a pure Ooze UB)."

Another thing, Ooze/Spit or Ooze users will almost have identical gear in early game (Banded armor, Haulber of Life and Unbreakble) hence Ooze going against a Spit/Ooze is going to lose due the lack of dps. You dont enough need to buy mana gear in fact, get a cheap 500g scaled helm + Unbreakable boot. Then you will have a decent pool of mana.

"Redundancy early-game. In the early game, just spitting on somebody is enough to scare them away. The Ooze points are being wasted"

Scaring your opponents away is a strategy and it's neccessary because then you can take over their lane and level faster than them. Nothing is waste putting one or two point in Ooze, why? If your opponent is dumb enough and decides to take a fight with you, turn on your Ooze and Spit them. That is going to be an easy kill.

"To get a spit/ooze build to level 10, you have all of one free point to spend on passives. You won't be able to keep foes within your reach, upgrade stats (which help), or go faster."

Put one into Diseased Claw and buy a wand of speed. 7 second buff is good enough for you to catch and land a debuff on them and Ooze/Spit while they are running.

Of course, there can't be a build that beats everything. However, one can have more advantage than the others in certain things

First off, can't chase somebody into the towers? What? Are you kidding me? 5k hp by level 6, with enough armor that towers deal ~170 damage isn't enough to tank the towers? It's incredibly easy to get a kill in the towers with an Ooze UB; I frequently get kills on enemies attempting to flee into areas with two towers, and one is hardly a deterrant at all. If I couldn't kill them anyway, I won't chase, but any demigod with under 2k hp is probably going to be cannon fodder for me even at the towers (except Sedna, QoT, or Erebus).

With the gear you suggested, you get three spits (maybe four if you get unbreakable boots before level 7). Wow. That's pretty pathetic, honestly. Sure, you have your glory; for all of three encounters (or less). Then you have to fall back. Nice.

Also, did I ever say that scaring your opponents away was a bad thing? It's not. But the points in Ooze ARE wasted if you scare people away by spitting on them. Your other passives either give you more stats or allow you to chase enemies better, but having Ooze with spit just gives you nothing until the enemy actually engages you, and then your reduced HP pool or limited mana pool make it pretty shakey (plus the fact you can't chase them unless, as I'll point out later, they happen to fall into a very risky assumption to make).

One point in diseased claw + wand? That only works if your enemy has no speed buffs on themselves or debuffs on them, is dumb enough not to buy a wand themselves, and can be killed in seven seconds. A lot of assumptions there.

Your build works, if your opponenets have no natural speed buffs and don't have a wand of speed, and if you can somehow manage to keep getting mana pots and still have enough gold to stay geared. But those are a lot of hard assumptions to make. But with spit taking huge amounts of mana, you are going to need more mana gear if you want to use it constantly and/or have foul grasp handy. The gear isn't going to look the same as somebody with Ooze unless you enjoy retreating every three/four times you spit and having to hope you still have enough mana for foul grasp. But those are bad assumptions to rely on.

To Cyrenic: Taking spit means you need mana gear, no matter what stage you are at. There is no point in de-gearing yourself for HP to take spit (especially considering my build generally starts taking stats at level 6 and gets passives a bit later, unless I'm being outsped.). I mean, sure, you can get it, but you won't get much use out of it, while having 660 extra health and 12% more AA damage will matter.

Also, HoL is pretty terrible for Ooze builds; it requires them to turn off their Ooze and Narmoth's ring is a lot better (for HP) in the same price-range, because it actually lets them heal during combat. And you can't have diseased claws maxed by level 10 with spit and ooze; you can have two points in it if you skip foul grasp.

Milskidasith, are you retarded? HOL is terribly for ooze builds? Are you too lazy to push 3 to turn off ooze and then HOL? Wow.

Considering using HoL requires me to retreat entirely from battle, yes, I find it pretty terrible when there is an item that costs the same, gives me a good amount of HP and regen, and lets me heal mid-battle.

For mana dependant DGs, sure, HoL is way better. The mana gain is simply insane. But with UB, why would I ever need to use a HoL? I get more HP instantly by using a sigil of vitality (and it costs less) and I get more HP during the battle with a Narmoth's ring. It's pretty much ALWAYS going to be worse, and if I have to retreat, it isn't going to be a situation where I can just patch myself up a bit and go back in (if I'm retreating, I've probably taken ~5k damage, maybe even 6k.). I have no mana needs, HoL heals less than 500 cost consumables, HoL requires me to leave battle, and HoL is worse for me than Narmoth's ring. Why would I want it?

You do know that turning off ooze causes you to stop moving for a second, giving the enemy a perfect chance to interupt HoL if he's chasing you, correct?