Tower rook OP?

Cons: Tower Rook is useless at parties -- He's pushing the left lane on cataract, and there's a big squabble going down in the middle, tower rook might as well just stay put cause he isn't going to get there in time to help, and even if he did, what is he going to do, build 1 tower, and ask everyone to hide behind it?

Cons: Towers do not scale -- So, you've got those towers nicely going there, but the game is getting a bit longer now, and some people have some decent gear. Heck this oak player has 50% damage mitigation, 5k hit points, and some priests, and seems to ignore the darn things.

Cons: Towers do not focus fire -- Oak again, this time he's going for soul power maxed out.  His 10 minions and perhaps a few idol minions around him, and the towers just aren't shooting Oak very often.

Cons: Tower clusters weak to AoE -- Frost nova, mines, etc, all can damage or negate a large number of towers by quite a bit.  Just having an enemy regulus in the lane can keep your farm from growing very big too, because he can work them down as you build them.

Cons: Towers require a long time to setup. If you start losing, you lose hard. -- Rook gets ganked by a pair of people, and a beast is left in the lane rook was in. All rooks towers collape, and now rook has to try and rebuild again. Only problem is that a single tower isn't much of a threat to the Beast, who can spit/ooze/grasp rook to death pretty handily.  He can try getting his towers going starting from far back... but 10 seconds per tower means he is spending a long time not even near the flag, or other important things.

Lastly, a lot of games are 3v3 with 2 lanes.  That means that in half the cases, someone is being double teamed on one lane, and someone on the other team is doubled up on in the other lane. Tower rook just doesn't contribute well to either of these scenarios.  If he is the aggressor in a 2v1, he doesn't bring a lot of damage or snare to the table.  If he is the 1v2, 2 DG's of equal strength can easily out dps his towers, especially because the towers don't focus fire (see con above).

I dunno. I play the rook quite a bit and I really don't feel there are many good counters to a towering strategy, my only real downfall is when I'm ganged up on or side capped too heavily late game, but not super late game when I can afford the pricier movement speed increasers.  They say the rook is slow, but is 5.4 speed really that slow?  It's still 90% of other DG movement speeds and it's not like you can't use portal scrolls.

Also when it comes to people saying towers don't scale, seriously who cares?  What else actually scales besides auto-attack damage?  Towers increase in strength every time you level up the skill, and while they do scale a bit negatively with armor, it doesn't really matter.  They still do damage, they're still dangerous in any but the most protracted of games, and a good rook build is going to max out boulder roll, god strength,and hammer slam in the end anyway, not to mention you'll have a point in stats.

The only rooks who are going to stall out in the end are the tower purists who pick up structural transfer and base the whole game around towers.

Maybe I shouldn't even post this because I love the rook and don't want to see him nerfed, oh well.

personally i think its just another one of those things you have to get used to, like UBs Spit, there are counters etc..

its just a matter of adjusting your playstyle against this tactic.

it is also makes it more frustrating because in this game good teamwork is hard to come by.

Actually anything that is percentage based scales pretty well. Stuns also scale, and burst damage is at least always that burst of damage. Towers are effected by armor, heck, so are auto attacks.  Auto's though increase all the time, towers stop at level 10, and become significantly worse pretty quick.  Consider Frost Nova, and how it never loses its effectiveness compared to Towers, which become pretty ignoreable.

haha, i would be funny if a towerfarm could be easily ignored...

like.. This rook has been building towers for minuts now, but it doesnt matter, cause we can ignore their dmg... Farms are a potential hiding place for friendly DG's, and a slow down for foes..

and thrust me, when a good rook player is pushing up your lane, pumping towers and bashing foes, you'll never doubt a rooks offensive power...

about the don't concentrate fire thingie... rook has 2 very funny AoE skills, both very capable of killing some monks and spirits, without much trouble...

Um I'd say all burst damage and damage skills scale better than Towers, mainly because it's not mitigated by armor like Tower damage is.

I agree completely. when i bought this game off impulse i thought it was highly biast on certain demigods and i was like why arnt they bringing out patches to fix this and balance the game. but as the manual says (after i finally got the box lol few weeks later) each demigod is unique even if 2 people play the same one... theres so many play styles for the demigods and each can counter each other i believe. i do a Super fast TB build, now its weak but its how you play it that counts...not much use for the UB with 6000 hp and 700 dmg with crit items if he cant catch me?... and then capping flags and portals... this is why i believe the game is quite balanced...maybe there is a bit of work to be done but i really belive no demigod needs nerfing. i think i strayed off te subject there a bit @.@

That's my thoughtas well, yep. An entrenched Tower rook is an AMAZING deterrance early-mid game but heading into late game he starts to lose his bite. Oak's Pent, forexample, will always do that 800 and the debuff. The towers will plink away.... but in endgame a demigod can have so much HP and regen they just ignore it.

As TB, it's not an issue. I can attrition dmg him enough when he walks forward to progress the line. Sometimes they mitigate it with ST, but then it's a mana game he is going to lose. And if he is low health but feels safe in the towers, a well timed Frost Nova and chase works.

1) It doesn't matter if the rook can't go in and fight, he will just push that lane until all the towers are gone, plus if your teammates are smart, they will simply retreat if they are low, however a tower rook NEVER needs to retreat, especially with HoL.

2) Usually a game with a DECENT tower rook will end before late game. In fact 95% of games end before i get to level 20. Also, a tower rook will prevent people from leveling because he can control 2 lanes quite easily, especially with Amulet of Teleportation.

3) Who cares if towers don't focus fire, they do so much damage and have so much health, especially with the tower upgrades at the Cit, that they will kill your minions before you can down even 2 of them, unless of course you have 2 people working on that tower farm, at which point your leaving one teammate to fend for himself against 2 other DG's.

4) Ok so AOE is the only thing that can take down towers fast and efficiently. Who has the best AOE? TB, who is the squishiest DG? TB. I play TB exclusively and going into a tower farm to AOE it, usually never takes out the towers and leaves me at less than half health. Reg is useless against tower farms because 8 towers will not go down by his auto attack alone considering towers have a 7 sec cooldown to rebuild.

5) Im sorry but towers do not take a long time to set up at all. If your in the lane, all you have to do is summon and tower and auto attack the DG until he retreats because your damage plus your towers damage is too much for any one DG to handle. This means you will EASILY build more towers and you will build them quickly.

6) Early on, no 2 people can take 2 towers plus the tower rook, and as the game progresses, you get more and more towers and more and more damage, including a stun which can really mess people up if they decide to come into your tower farm to break it up.

Im sorry but if you honestly think tower rooks aren't OP, ill get 2 friends to go tower rook with me and you can get 2 friends and do whatever you want and i can almost garuntee you wont win.

Tower Rooks reach their peak at about level10, but after that begin to peter out.

Just save for catapults, it's not that much between three of you.

I beg to differ. I played an extremly effective tower rook at lvl 17 and ended the game by around lvl 18 with another win under my belt.

Those 6 counter points you came up with are certain not fact. I used to think tower Rooks were OP as well. But then I played some more and found it they weren't. Especially when I play with my TB. I just wear him and his tower farms down with AoE/Fireballs. If he chases me I run away far enough that he's out of the protection of his tower farm.

1) By mid-game I will have enough armor to go into a tower farm and kill Rook(as ooze UB).

2) The same can be said for most games. But by level 15 towers are pratically useless.

3) The tower upgrades at the Citadel don't affect Rook towers.

4) Tower cooldown is 10 seconds, not 7, and Regulus can use his mines.

5) Refer to 1

6) Early on yes, but refer to 1 again. Towers don't scale well.

UB + QoT. QoT bramble shields me, allowing me to go into your tower farm and temporarily take no damage. I focus on attacking you while QoT uses spike wave to hit you, your towers, and lower your armor at the same time.

My spirit Oak can pretty much always beat a towers rook if I have enough time with him alone, someone will usually bail him out when they see i'm destroying towers faster than he can put them back up

The thing is, it's true, those don't scale. But towers scale negatively, or rather scale even more negatively than those (after all, snipe is worthless if you ever get to the level 20 everybody has at least one artifact situation). All that matters to skills is HP, and you can generally get a good range for HP (1.5k to a bit under 3k early game, 2.5k to 4.5k by level 5, 3.5k to 7k by level 10, and from there it's all about artifacts). Towers scale negatively by armor, HP, damage dealt by enemy foes, effectiveness of AoE's, having more minions, and basically everything that helps an enemy out can be applied to towers. Plus they take forever to set up.

Basically, towers just scale badly against EVERYTHING. Every level up, normal skills get slightly less useful (and gain huge boosts at skill-levelups, for the most part). But every time an enemy levels up, towers become a lot less effective. They also have a huge time disadvantage the farther you level up; you essentially become immobile, and at max level towers are about equal to being hit by the AA's of a level 10 demigod, which, at level 15 (the usual lategame level) is pretty much ignorable when the Rook you are fighting probably isn't very buffed up on passives (It's posssible he is; I've seen good hybrid builds, but they usually ditch towers at 7 and still aren't very mobile or combat effective).

Also, an Ooze UB can beat a Tower + Hammer Slam Rook of the same level at level 7, with a full tower complement for the rook (this is anecdotal, but I had no special items besides maybe having Hauberk of Life early because I got a kill very early game against a UB who was at low HP and spitting on towers.)

I play Rook almost exclusively, and I have only ever been able to do this against weak opponents. If the Rook is still effective at level 17, then that is imba as hell.

At level 17 with a mageslayer or slayer's wraps (or perhaps both by that stage) Beast/Reg can kill a tower in about 1.5 seconds with autoattack, so you're obviously playing against people who arent very skilled if you're effective as a tower rook at level 17.

Level 17 is what....30 minutes in? Both teams have probably got at least catas by this stage, and one (or more) member of each team will have some serious gear, they arent going to even notice your towers.

I go towers/independent weapons every time, save level 3 until level 5 and get boulder roll/tower of light, then I get my first hammer slam at 6, second at 9, and third/fourth at 11 and 12...  I skip structural transfer completely and end up maxing everything else at 20 and getting one stat point, so I don't really feel the downwards scaling of the towers is an issue.

Early to mid game towers are fantastic, late game boulder roll/hammer slam combos are amazing with the 50% snare which gives plenty of time to wail on people, and honestly towers aren't bad either when you consider that most DGs have no way to prepare for the next fight between battles.  It may not be the best skill at 15+, but it beats doing nothing between encounters and still allows you to HoL safely without falling back from creep lanes entirely.

Rooks towers are useless if more then one player attacks him, due to his slow speed and low armor two other DG's can run in, kill him quickly and get out before taking serious damage, or later game once they have more hp and armor they just stick around and kill off the remaining towers.

Rooks lack of mobility really hurts him, if he advances to far he's an easy target for the enemy, his inability to support his allies quickly also means that the other team can focus on controlling the other sections of the map.

End game the towers are a complete joke. I've had UB charge a full group of towers, kill me inside, and leave with 3/4 or more of his health still intact.

i will try to explain in short why you are wrong and it is balanced:

1. rook towers are a bit op only in the early game! end of mid game and end game a slam build is much more effective. and any demigod can kill a stright tower rook alone

2. range demigods and generals can have a fair 1vs1 with a tower rook. the mineons distract tower dmg and/or kill some towers. the range dg can destroy towers without taking dmg. of course the rook can rebuild them, but not for ever, mana

3. if you team up with a second demi god you can destroy the rook pretty fast as he can not flee. you do not let you other partner (3vs3 or so) too much time alone. or one dg kills the towers, the other the rook. and/or allways wait for creep support to eat some tower dmg.

so briefly, towers are somewhat op in very early game, but the rooks slow speed and and direct dmg abilities make up for it.

the balance not allways lays in direct confrontation. often it is made of a combination of dg skills, and other circumstances. so to see the balancened picture it is not allways easy too see. currently i cannot see any singificant problems with balance, if tehre are some than they are minor or only temporal until somebody gets an idea to conter.

 This is incoherent and wrong. Any rook, not just a tower based one, is pretty good at pushing a Lane, it is one of his strong suits. To offhandedly assume he can do this without going in and fighting, I'm not even sure what the heck you are trying to say.

No he can't. I mean, I don't even know how to rationally argue your point because you make an outrageous claim that just isn't reproduceable. Hold 2 lanes by himself? This is just not true, not in the slightest.  And an amulet of Teleportation could be putting him 800 health down on an opponent sieging him.

First of all, citadel upgrades do not help rook towers. Secondly you are once again making a very wrong assertion: That a tower farm will rip through a group of minions.  Sure they'll hurt them somewhat but most of them will survive to beat up on Rook... and all those minions will be hitting rook, while only some towers will hit the sieging general.

You play TB exclusively, and make comments about the effectiveness of minions? Are you one of those silly 'fire only' TB's, whose idea of handling a tower farm is running in the middle, and doing Circle + Fire nova?

Secondly, you are wrong about regulus on two counts.  First count: 10 seconds between towers. Second count: You don't NEED to explicitly keep up with the tower generation to completely cripple a tower depending rook.  All you have to do is keep working on 'em, and shoot at rook whenever he shows himself.  If you get mines, then a triplet of mines can take out or severely cripple a group of towers.  But relying on auto attack is already pretty mana efficient, even for Angelic Fury spec.

You are suggesting that auto attack from rook + ONE TOWER is too much for ANY or even MOST DG's to handle? That is blatantly absurd. Even then, the RAW time it takes to build 8 towers is still 80 seconds. 8*10 = 80. That's a long time.  Even getting 4 towers up is enough time for a level 1 TB to do 1500 damage from fireballs alone to you, and taking little to no damage from your towers. For the full 80 seconds, a level 1 TB could do 3300 damage... a level 10 (same level as you) could do more than 11000 damage to you during that time.

Well, this is just wrong.  Level 1 towers do something like 50 DPS.  Even if you have 2 of them, for a decent 100 dps, you still get marauded by a pair of enemies. Later on you have to deal a bit more especially with a rook with a full farm, but still any 2 DG's played decently will beat him.

Well, I doubt we could so easily organize 6 people to do this, but if you really want to get humiliated then try to schedule something, and I'll see if my friends are available.  Friday nights work well.

Bestial Wrath, Surge of Faith, Ooze's attack speed Penalty.

My god, you are right, it IS almost like I'm suggesting Stun effects to be one of the most consistently effective abilities in the game.  My word you did catch me there. The point is that Rooks towers not only do not get better after level 10, but they actively get worse: Armor starts effecting them more and more. Further more, late game generally has a greater need for mobility, especially if (Gasp!) rook manages to die or something crazy like that.  Since towers require a combination of time and mana to be effective (A level 4 tower by itself just isn't that scarey) Any forced moments of problem result in having to start all over again... on your long 80 seconds journey to OMG, I haz teh Castle Power now!

The trouble isn't Rooks who get just Towers, it's the Towers, and the Stun, and Hammer Slam. No UB will survive coming into 8 towers under focus fire, then getting stunned and non-armor-reducibly hit for 1700 damage for quite a while.

I don't think Tower Rooks are OP. The mobility is just too poor.