The biggest prodblem with Demigod and why people will quit (Please take note frogboy)

This is getting fixed I here. Rejoice!

This is an age old problem in RTS's. 

I'm one of those guys who don't play online with friends so I'm usually on the receiving end of this kind of problem.

The solution won't come in one big update but rather gradually over time.

One of the first things you'll likely see (ETA next couple weeks) will be that the connection info will put the player's experience score as part of their connection data. 

This is one of the reasons why the stats not being robust right now is such a headache is because the skill rating stuff is ultimately useless without the stats being accurate.  The stat handling being more robust should go up this week.

Now, from there, things get a little murky. I've made many journals on the issue with lots of different ideas. The tricky part is what can we do that won't split the MP community up?

Things like arranged teams and the like are great on paper but they do very little for casual players.  I've been pushing for "random teams" for custom games. That's a bit more doable but I'm not sure how popular that feature would be either.

Skirmish and Pantheon provide a solution on paper but the problem there is that people simply quit before the game starts or just after the game starts if they don't get the combo they like which really ruins the game play experience.

In other words, there are no perfect solutions. My personal preference is randomized teams like I said.

Thank you for your quick reply and while I know it is not an easy issue to fix I did come up with one idea that may or may not be feasible.  Is there a way that there could either be a seperete tab, or just something on the custom game screen that makes it blatantly obvious that the games are either very competitive or casual?  People put things in the game names like, "pros only" but most of the time people who just bought that game or are on the lower end skill wise still join.  Or is there a way to create a game and make it so someone has to meet certain specifications based on their stats (once stats are accurate) that would allow or not allow someone in to a game?

On the subject of random teams I think the major issue here is that it will not fix the issue if 1 out of the 6 is still significantly worse than the rest and also will make it harder to play with friends which a lot of players really enjoy doing.

Thanks again.

hey Frogboy is there any chance that SD/GPG will post how the experience is calculated on ladder ? If people will be "branded" with taht number atleast let us know where its taken from. I've seen many unexperienced players having huge xp, and some really skilled guys have negative xp ...

If we could see how its done we may be able to help fix it (like for ex. the skill bug)  or atleast make it better and more representative of the individual skill. As it stands right now the only way to judge a player's skill is either to play with them or check their stats like wins/losses and if he played premades vs newbs.

You say you dont want to split the community up, well you cant do anything about it. In every competitive game the community split in a number of ways and its natural and good for the game. I hope i dont have to explain why, just look at any other competitive game.

I myself think that for more accurate stats we need to have more awards handed out per game.

Healing awards such as:

Amount of overall healing
Saves of someone who normally would have died (no clue how this could be done but if it could be done it would be the most amazing thing)

and these things would need a record. Maybe a large log that would take the gametime and compare it to other games endscore with the same people

Example:

Player - kills - 5

Past game other player - kills - 3

past game other player - kills - 8

past game other player - kills - 7

past game other player - kills - 0

Now i know this would be inaccurate at first but after a while i think we could compile a large database of games even with the randomness of teams. Now sure there is going to be some outlyers changing the average but over 1000+ games it sort of all fixes out. If feeders are accounted and same with someone who can't get a kill at all it would/should balance out to an average. And if you are within the top half of the gaming community with this character on this map then you get access to a Pro-gamer area in addition to the casual players area.

Now this would need tweaking and it would split the community but I think most games do it and it works out okay MOST OF THE TIME.

Now you would need to periodically wipe the rankings every so often so that new players get a chance to raise their ranking. Instead of screwing themselves the first 20 games with all losses and then being mad when they win the next 35 straight and someone who has played 5 games and won 3 has a better rank.

I can team up with my buddies on TS and kill random noobs the whole day and that counts for ladder ranking? Then ladder rating is totally pointless.

My solution: Ladder ranking should only count for skirmish or pantheon achievements. Just take a look at wc3, they simply created ladders for each type of game.

With an accurate ranking the matchmaking system could check the ranking and match each team up with equally strong players, hopefully creating competitive games. At least this would work in skirmish, which might be the most interesting way to join a match for veterans and casuals alike.

Team automatch is not hard.

Seriously Brad, GPGnet had everything the competitive community needed (minus a few bugs but whatever). You guys chucked it in favor of whatever it is you expected Impulse to become. "Random Teams" does not solve the problem. The outcome of a skill based RTS should not be determined by a roll of the dice.

Who's "you guys"?

You should probably first find out what you're talking about before making such statements.

I think what we'll probably do in the short-term is make it so that only skirmish/pantheon games are ranked. Custom games not ranked.

Any of these systems has to be done both on the client side and the server side. 

Pre-arranged teams aren't hard to do programmatically. The problem is usually in the % of people who want a feature like that versus the number of people who just want to sit down and play the game online.

If there's a typical daily population of say 2000 Demigod players and of that only 100 of them are "pre-arrange teams" it doesn't really make sense to spend a lot of resources to cater to those 100 people.  Instead, the effort should be made to make it easier for the other 1900 players who just want to have a good fun game.

I think those who have said that the problem creates itself because custom games are ranked have a good point.

could u add another info tag in the lobby for a clan tag or somethng.  this way those who want to create pre arranged matches can make sure they're facing a team all on the same team/clan. this could also be used for those looking for friendly pub games and would help to boost clan recuitment.

a simple box by (or in) the name thats say 5 characters.  then when ur in gam the names would come up like:

Light Side

[UoC] TheScottishAlien

[UoC] PyroFred

[UoC] SkullPheonix

Dark Side

/F|B\ Gokind

/F|B\ Theasent

/F|B\ Kiol877

i know a few peole alreay use can tags (i'm talking about u Exilir) and all it woul require would be a text box at the top of the lobby we lookng games in Customs were yu enter in your clan name (or madeup one for friendly games)

Oh please no. Show some mercy with people outside US and EU. Even though the matchmaking system is "fixed" i still can't join ANY game for being on South America. And let's be honest, Custom games are a clear favorite.

I think there's a lot more people who play in pairs than that, though I appreciate it's difficult if not impossible to get an actual number of how many pairs/threes of friends play the game.

Perhaps the best indication is the amount of discussion over premades? Pug players are obviously dissatisfied because a significant number of their games involve being trounced by a pair or three, surely that would imply there is a significant portion of both groups.

I guess "Random Teams" will clearly indicate that a lobby isn't a Premade, but what about pug players who don't use the feature because they want to know which characters are playing with who?

@Alien:Maybe if you could see that a lobby made by someone was a premade lobby by adding the clan tag to the lobby name, so the pug players avoid it and other pre's can join it without having to hope the host is willing to kick randoms to make space for their team.

Condescend all you want. I'm not the typical clueless asshat you're used to. Someone at GPG or Stardock ("you guys") made the decision.

You've stated you favor the 1900+ casuals over the 100+ competitives. I understand your position and appreciate the honesty. Now I know where to spend my time.

Custom games are prolly only really a favorite because you can actually see that you're going to get into a game...I finally played a bit of Pantheon and it was more enjoyable, but waiting around with no feedback on whether the matchmaking process is working is a bit of a drag.

Plus if you look at the stats pages, there are three tabs on the rankings -- Ladder, Custom Game, and Skirmish:

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/rankings/ladder/

That implies they're separate -- may as well keep Custom rankings limited to the Custom tab.

Minor issue when you enter a game and find you have AI and they have all humans (pantheon issue) or the pings are stupidly high (600+) because I am playing a EU person from Australia... 350 is fine - I've said that all over the forums, since Americans often won't accept me even though my connection generally will be fine with 350 to them - above 400 however is a slide show and not worth the game starting!!!

This is great, Frog!  Thanks.

Yes, hopefully not here.

That said, it's clear that the ratio is far more than 1900 to 100 so we'll have to find a different way.

what about people like me who have a casual play schedule but a competitive attitude?

i don't get to play as often as people like Shadow and I don't have a regular pre-made team, but i very much still want to be matched with skilled players who can provide good competition for me and be good team-mates for me. 

skill or rank matching is always going to be important, even if it doesn't involve pre-made vs. pre-made teams. 

would you like a refund shadow? sounds like you would like a refund

When I asked for a refund they deactivated my Sins of a Solar Empire CD Keys(Which had nothing to do with Demigod) and labeled my accounts as "fraud".

But hey.. I got my refund thanks to the dedicated people at the credit card company fighting for their account holders.

------

Shadow's forum account has been locked out. He wanted to say he more than got his money's worth from Demigod and thank you for the experience.

Something else that might help this problem is a better chat system through impulse...the current one is not very good.  SOmetimes I dont get messages, I am not alerted when receiving a message and it is hard to keep up with people.

[EDIT: by the real Stone_McPhone]

Another way to have chat improve the overall game quality is for talking to be a major part of the game.  To be honest, about 1/3 of foolish newbie deaths can be prevented by having the more expereinced players talk to them.  Additionally this allows the newbies to learn about the game while the more experienced player can have a more fun competitive experience. 

Basically I'm saying that one NEEDS to be able to talk to thier teammates at least.  Typing in a game of this speed just doesn't cut it.  The chat system IS completely worthless but that doesn't really affect the game itself.  To make communication a more important part of this game, we gotta have voice chat.

Even more to this, the premade teams that f-up everything right now are all on ventrilo anyway.  When you came out with the whole gameranger thing, Frogboy, you mentioned that you dislike promoting outside software.  Well don't promote vent, have your own system!

[/EDIT]

Also on a different note would it be possible to make the random function try to avoid doubles and triples on the same team?  You would still get a random Demigod, but it would be less likely to put 3 Regulus on one team and make it a terrible game.

Like I've been saying in the other thread. You cannot do this without providing friends to play together and have it ranked. You're making people who want to play together (the people who will stick with this game) feel like chumps for wanting to play together.

I'm also on the receiving end of mismatches most of the time in RTS as well, and I usually do not do consistent arranged teams.  I honestly do prefer random more than arranged team in games that support either method, as there tends to be a wider variety of players to play with / against and less wait time.

I think one key thing that any serious RTS player should do is try to help others via instruction assuming they're willing to accept it.  I don't mean "run away you f'in n00b", I mean solid guidance.  You'd be surprised at what even the newest of players are capable when they're given sound advice. 

In regards to Demigod, I do wonder if an arranged team setup would be underutilized.  Perhaps SD / GPG could run a poll to produce actual numbers?

I'd like to reiterate Shadow's thanks, Frogboy. He and I have played way too many games of Demigod together to not appreciate the effort put into it. We criticise because we love, and want to make better. For now, we've moved on to a game with more polish, but I personally look forward to seeing how Demigod improves.

Cheerio

Yep - I agree here that one factor is the rather small player counts of the typical demigod game, compared to other team-based competetive games. The less players you have on a side, the more impact a weaker player will have on their team, which generally leads to a less satisfying experience for everyone involved if the match is one-sided.

As Frogboy hints, this problem (especially random team vs premade team) is especially severe in RTS games  - the traditional 'slipperly-slope' with the weaker side falling further and further behind certainly doesn't help. Although problems of exactly this type were also really common in left 4 dead versus games.

Hypothetically, if demigod were to featured integrated voice chat, this might help to level the playing field somewhat between random teams and premade teams of friends. 'Cause the premade teams are probably using voice via some external application.

edit: re:

I agree. Again, this would be easier with integrated voice chat (but I can understand if that isn't at all a priority). I'm damn new to the game, but I play with a couple of friends who aren't, and it's much much easier to learn the ropes when you're able to chat with your team mates.