Thoughts on game balance and a fix

TB can't fire on towers outside of their range, except for fireball ability.

As for Reg, that's the whole point of that ability. It's not terribly useful otherwise.

What's the whole point of what ability? His range? I actually wasn't sure tb did fire on towers from outside their range, but threw it in anyway, since I hadn't particularly paid close attention to it, and had it been the case, I would have wanted it changed.

TB can not fire from outside the range of a tower. Also Reg needs to use a skill point to get the range outside a tower. like Kitkun said, it is the only reason to get it.

I think it makes a mess of the game, he's the only one who can undertake siege without taking any damage. For any other demi, the cost of attacking a tower is manifold, the cost of health and mana when enemies return being the largest issue. But also an unchecked reg can take down a whole lane's worth of towers without taking damage. Which is just...ridiculous. It may be the only reason to get the skill, but really that doesn't make it reasonable when it comes to gameplay.

If you haven't played the game enough to know if tb can auto attack on towers or not, then you probably havent played the game enough to know anything about balance.  Especially if you're getting killed by a mist build of erebus.  and yeah it may seem a little one sided that he gets minions for free, but his minions often become his only way of attacking say a reg or ub that is harassing but staying back behind towers, until he gets bat swarm it's the only thing he has that has any form of range.  night walkers aren't particularly strong units either, no one see's them and run away, they run away because they know LE is coming with bite/batswarm/minions

I've been playing this since the beta was made available, my having overlooked something doesn't destroy the meat of the post, you could focus on that, or you could focus on an effort to be dismissive, it's up to you.

He isn't doing without minions, he simply has to spend a little for them. And I'm not suggesting something too far flung I don't think. With a long duration and short cast time, and a similar need to spend a skill point to get them, like oak, who does not simply have minions, you balance the playing field, I don't see it as destructive of the character, just balancing action.

It's set up this way so each of the generals are 'unique' in the way they gain minions. Sedna has melees that are summoned. QoT ranged AoE summonables. Oak gets AoE spirit summons from the dead, flying ranged units that die in 1 hit. Then erubus just summons night walkers.

Of all the things that need to be addressed I feel erubus night walkers is the least important, where mist is of much greater concern but in no way top priority. I still feel there is a large discrepency between the ability of assassins to turn mana and gold into damage, in comparison to a generals ability to change the same amount of mana and/or gold into much more life. In particular sedna's high priests, and if scritinized close enough it becomes pretty obvious monks and such of all shapes and sizes are literally game breaking.

I easily get 1000 - 1500 per heal off a high priest at level 10, which is a stupid amount of 'free' healing, regardless of what pro players decide is balanced or fair. No amount of skills from a single demigod is able to deminish this healing rate, let alone keep up with sedna's abitily to transform her mana into health in addition to minion heals. (insert comments about Stun sedna Shes not OP, spike her down and AoE minions) please, any time a DG requires a coordinated team of 2 or possibly 3 assassin builds to kill, there is something wrong with the game.

i realy dont agree whit your ideas abot erabus and reg but i like your idea about Qot

I think the qot issue is an obvious problem...If you've played qot. The other stuff, not so much.

@alvaro: I think priests of all castes are pretty assailable. simple aoe spells can do them in pretty easily. They also get into the battle, and tend to take damage with the rest of the creeps. Resummoning them comes at the cost of mana, which could be used for other things...which I think is where the trade off is supposed to occur. I haven't thought priests to be game breaking, at all. Even if I have none, usually ground spikes will do a number on them, and spike wave if any are hanging out in the vicinity of whoever I'm attacking. Where in the game are you seeing this be overmuch powerful? Could you give me an example?

The point of Erebus having to cast conversion aura, rather than it just being an effect, is that it forces him to spend mana and a skill point on them. I rarely see Sedna or Qot with yeti or shamblers, primarily because of the cost and relative performance of them. Oaks spirits are much more common, though even they seem to have dropped off in use a good bit. Erebus will get support at no expense. If he has to spend some mana on them, and a skill point to have conversion aura, it better equates with the way other generals have to be played. Which is at a cost if you want followers. As it stands he has all of his mana available for other tasks, bat swarm, bite, mist, charm. If he has to pay for them with mana/a skill point, it just puts him on the same playing field as everyone else. The point is to make the playing field level without changing the character too much. The mana costs may be enough to do this, which is why I suggest it.

The mist issue is one that has bothered me since December of last year. draining health didn't seem appropriate, but having it dependant upon mana provides him with a possibly limitless invlunerable state that can remove an entire army from the field. Giants will stop to smash the nightwalkers, as will everything else, and they all take damage from it...Not that the damage a catapultsaur or giant is a big deal, but when they fight the nightwalkers, it prevents the entire army from advancing. Over a couple of nightwalkers...On some level I think that's fine...sort of. but he shouldn't be able to maintain that state indefinitely. Also, should they change it back to draining his health (or a combination of health and mana, which I think is a good solution) at the end of mist he has lost health, and is more assailable at the end of that.

I agree with your points on Erebus and Regulus.

Erebus right now is the most overpowered and abusable demigod. Unlike other generals, it doesn't take anything to get minions besides being in range of dying creeps. Mist is also retarded. It makes you invulnerable, clears debuffs, damages enemies and heals your minions, AND your abilities recharge while you're in it. At the cost of what? A little mana over time, and immobility.

Regulus being able to outrange towers is also dumb as hell, but the solution should be to significantly increase the range of towers rather than decreasing Regulus's range.

Same as camel. Though i think Regulus should still be able to outrange towers all the time. Maybe the building firepower upgrade should add 1,25 range each upgrade so that final level gives towers 5 extra range, still making regulus able to outrange towers, but making him invest more than 1 or 2 points in range to do so.

Also I'd like to see Erebus have a base movespeed of 5.7 instead of 6.3 cause he says it himself "Haste is so undignifying", and give those 0.6 movespeed to Sedna and QoT to make their movespeeds 6.3 cause they're both riding mounts and lets face it, their minions are pretty much shit. (though when i think about it, this would make them pretty hard to kill as they both have decent survivability)

Maybe increasing the range of the towers is a solution, but I think the problem with that is that their range would sort of encroach on the battlefield a bit more than it already does, although that might be fine. I think logically, it makes sense that he could hit the tower with his crossbow, but I think the fact that he can undertake siege without taking damage, or spending anything, presents a big problem with balance. Anyone else will take damage from a tower they're attacking, and when defenders return they're in a hurt condition. This I think is a real problem.

Any general can damage a tower without taking damage by using seige minions. UB can run up and spit then run away, taking virtually no damage and inflicting a decent amount, then rinse and repeat. Rook has his abosrb tower thing which will damage the tower and heal any damage he takes. TB has fireball. Every Demigod has ways to take down towers while taking little or no damage, thus, I see no issue.

And if Erebus wants to sit in mist the whole time, go right ahead, it only means he cant be anywhere else.

The only thing I do agree with is that Erebus' minions could use a little toning down. Lowering their chance to spawn a bit would seem like a good change to me. Instead of 50%-80%, maybe 30%-65%.

Honestly if they just made mines not usable on towers, that would be a very nice balance change.

Almost any DG can kill towers pretty easily. Any general can buy seige idols, or just tank them for a while and then back up to let their priest minions heal them. UB can spit. TB can fireball. Reg can autoattack from out of range. None of these work unless they leave you alone with their tower. If you're willing to spend the time to kill it and they cant or wont defend it, they dont deserve to keep it. Reg outranging towers is fine.

Minions in general need to be addressed. The free nature of nightwalkers isnt really the core of the issue, its the fact that you can constantly resummon and kamikaze the horde into the enemy base, laying waste to towers and eventually the citadel. This is particularly bad for smaller games (2v2, 3v3), where there is *nothing* that can stop this. Costing some small amount of mana wont fix the problem since Oak pays mana for his and he can do it just as well. Minions need to give experience and have reduced damage versus structures, and require their master to stay near them to receive the benefits of horn.  

So glad you made it, I guess it was only a matter of time. I'm only talking about nightwalkers at the moment, you can bring that up in your own thread if you would like. The difference in all of these is that spit/fireball, cost mana, putting yourself in a potentially costly circumstance should enemy demis arrive. This is the difference. Once Reg has the range, he can potentially take down lanes worth of towers, particularly if he has gloves of some kind, or another way to amplify his damage. Without any immediate threat or cost. he can accelerate the process by using mines, which he doesn't have to get in range of the tower to use. This at least costs him some mana, but he doesn't need to use them. He can just use the crossbow and take them down without any problem. 

1. You were actually anticipating/awaiting/preparing for my arrival in this thread? Uh huh... 

2. If you're only talking about the free nature of nightwalkers, then like I said, no problem, its just one of Erebus's quirks. Like Rook getting automated weapons, or UB moving at 6.3, or (relevantly) Regulus outranging towers. 

3. Regulus can't kill your towers unless you ignore him. Considering almost all the towers are in the creep paths, which you should want to be in anyways, I don't see how this is a problem. If you ignore him, you deserve to lose the tower. If he defeats you and you have to run away, you deserve to lose the tower. 

Bad play = negative results. This is how things are supposed to work. 

1. Not preparing, just, my cynical side, the side that would embrace something like Murphy's Law made me think it was only a matter of time before you, or someone like minded, with a similar attitude showed up and dismissed all my comments.

2. Calling it a quirk is simply dismissive. Things can be different without being imbalanced, but the issues that come up because the demigods are not all identical (like if you were playing couter-strike for example, completely level playing field, easily balanced, game balance issues come up more when teams are stacked or something similar) are complex. You feel they are quirks, I think they provide Erebus with too much free help. They are small and weak, but come in numbers  and can do a little damage without much investment. Whereas to get a similar result (for oak, the only comparable demi) He has to invest, a significant portion of his level one mana in, and has had to use a skill point to get them.

3. I don't consider that sufficient. Any other demi, has to either take damage or spend mana in order to take down a tower, this is an imbalancing element of the game.

Bad play = negative results is too simplistic for the dialog that exists in the game. Yes that level of dialog exists, but there are more complex dialogs you don't seem willing to accept that other people are capable of being reflective on.

Except when Oak does it, he pays for it in more than just mana. Spirits are a MAJOR source of Oak's auto-attack damage. If he's constantly sending them to kamikaze the towers then he's doing a lot less damage himself. Nightwalkers though... nightwalkers are literally just fodder. Whether they are alive does not affect Erebus in any way.

Agree about the horn, but minions absolutely CANNOT give experience. If they give experience than assassins will outlevel enemy demigods very quickly. Minions already cost money to buy and mana to summon.

A better solution would be to implement a "leash", i.e. make it so that minions cannot go further than a certain distance from their owner. This way, even if the general is sending his minions on suicide missions, he has to be close by and thus not completely out of danger.

1. As far as I remember the only time we've argued with one another is that thread where you had that delusion about happy-fairy-princess-unicorn-land where the devs could balance the game so even a noob could counter everything. So if by "someone like me," you mean "someone a vast amount of experience in dealing with proper balance and competition, and logical arguments that support his point of view," then yes, you were correct to expect me.  

2. So you feel X and I feel not-X, that relly doesn't get us anywhere. I do not think that the balance or imbalance of the free nature of nightcrawlers can currently be evaluated because they exist simultaneously with tactics and mechanics that are far more obviously imbalanced (no given xp, horn), as I menionted earlier. After those things are fixed, my hunch is that free nightcrawlers wont be a problem. 

3. No its not. You cannot fixate on one aspect of DG X and claim to have discovered imbalance. You must look at it in context with the DG as a whole, and all the other DGs, and then deduce that DG X is imbalanced.

For example, take the Soul Calibur 4 character, Cassandra. She has one move which is far better than all her other moves: 236B, aka "Deathfist." It is her defining, signature ability, one of the single most effective moves in the game. Is it better by comparison to other moves? Yes. Is Cassandra imbalanced? No. Cassandra has weaknesses, and other characters have good stuff of their own.

Regulus' Sniper Scope is not in the same league as Deathfist. Its more similar to Cassandra's B6 (actually that was the command input in SC2, I don't remember what it was changed to in SC4 atm), which is a situational move than punishes opponents for foolish or reckless play. In any case, taking out towers when no one is opposing him is just something Reg can do. Sedna can heal herself from 1 HP to full health, for free, in about 25 seconds. UB can chain stuns but no other character in the game can. Erebus is the only DG with a tactical teleport. Oak can turn himself invincible at 1 HP, pop a Robust Health Pot, and be combat ready again in 3 seconds. Those abilities are far more powerful than the abiltiy to pick off a stupid tower or two. Conclusion: From the fact that "Regulus can outrange towers and no one else can," you cannot deduce that he is imbalanced.  

4. Bad Play = Negative Results and Good Play = Positive Results are the most basic, fundamental elements of gameplay. They are like the atoms of competition, everything reduces to these types of statements on its most fundamental level. Just as we speak in terms of atomic particles to understand chemistry, we must speak in these basic terms to understand the basic workings of competition. The overriding fact here is that Regulus can't do shit to your towers unless you screw up. Which. Is. Fine. Might it help if we included the fact that destroyed towers are often irrelvant to determining the winner, anyways? Reg's supposed OPness helps him in area which usually dones't impact the outcome of the game. Yeah ok. 

What need of autoattack damage does Oak have if your citadel is dead? 

I suppose its two different ways of implementing the same effect. If it turns out that giving xp ends up being too much of a liability and therefore banishing minions from serious play, perhaps it would not be the best option. We wouldn't know for sure unless we tested it out, though. The effect we're really going for here is to make sure the enemy can't keep suiciding minions into your base to kill your citadel. 

It takes a significant amount of time for the minions to destroy the citadel. It's not like he send a group and boom.

1. You didn't read my post obviously, since it said nothing of the kind. Vast experience? LOL, being evangelical isn't convincing, sorry charlie.

2. So let's focus on you. I get the feeling you want that. Your issue with minions is that they can be sent to harry enemy demis or attack buildings...That doesn't seem to out of whack to me, perhaps you could describe a circumstance in which it makes for imbalanced play?

3. It is in reference to demigod as a whole, no other demi has the capacity to attack towers at no expense. Did I mention that before? I get your example, and yes, each demi should be in their own way exceptional. No question. Speaking of which, did I mention in the first post that he's more effective at taking down towers than even those who are "specialists" at doing this? Oh wait, I mentioned it in the first post. Once he's spent his skill point, since he takes no damage and spends no mana, and can pursue it to completion, provided he goes undetected. 

4. Right, opening a path to the enemy citadel for troops and demis to move uncontested has no impact...OK. Of course bad play should equal loss, and the contretemps. You're missing the depth of the comment, or just ignoring it. There is more depth to the game than bad play/good play. You yourself talk about an imbalance in the game, via the minions being sent on missions, but isn't that an example of your just being a bad player?

1. No matter what I say on this matter you'll never take my word for it, so I won't waste any more keystrokes. 

2. 2v2 Prison, LE + Oak. Buy idols, level up minion skills. Farm creep waves, send troops to enemy base. Activate Horn when troops are threatened. Ignore outer towers and go directly for arrow towers guarding Citadel. Continue farming creeps and sending waves of minions. Kill Citadel. If you leave a DG back to kill minions, they hold all flags all game since your other DG is 1v2, and gain massive level advantage since your one guy is stuck in base not gaining xp. If you don't leave a guy back, the minions kill your Cit. Impossible to kill enemy DGs because they can just run away before they are threatened. Completely. Unstoppable. 

3. If you get my example then you should "get" that it does not matter that no other DG can do what Reg can do. You need to show that ability is so good that it destabilizes the strength/weakness system that balances the rest of the game. 

Have I mentioned how incredibly stupid the concept of a "seige specialist" is right now? Killing towers is one of the least important aspects of the game. You are misattributing the problem to Reg, whereas the problem could just as easily (and probably more accurately) be attributed to Queen's inadaquacy or the game in general (towers not being important enough to warrant a seige specialist in the first place). Or, you could just conclude that since seige ability in this game doesn't matter very much, Reg's ability to poke towers is one of the least useful things about him. I mean seriously, complaining about Sniper Scope is like complaining about Inner Grace or Inner Beast. There are clearly better / possibly OP things to complain about for those DGs. 

4. Show me an example of depth that doesn't have anything to do with good or bad play. 

Why hate on erebus the most?!?!

His minions... meh, ill give u that much. an alternative to how he can gain minions (if the big issue here is that he gets them with no mana cost) could be, 'when erebus uses bite on an enemy, there is X% chance (depends on the convert skill) of nearby enemies to turn to his minions when they die'. Just something i thought of on the spot.

But his mist is fine the way it is. I reckon if its  changed to 'drain life', ppl would think thrice before getting it. Its bad enough that poisoned blood can even dmg ur allies.

Erebus has alrdy got counters anwyay ... "NO NERFS TO ANYONE PLZ" only "TWEAK"