Doubles -- what's the big deal?

There really isn't any reason to not allow doubles. Doubles do increase that DG's respective strengths but it also means that one counter can normally take them both out. Unless of course both doubles went with completely different builds.

I've played against double tower rooks and unfortunately we didn't have anyone who could handle even one tower rook at the time. But if we had an ice TB or a good minion general we would of destroyed the other team hands down.

People just look at it wrongly. 2 Uncleans means 2 spits ZOMG! Ummmm oh wait TB's fireball does just as much which means a TB and a UB is just like having 2 UBs with respect to spit. 2 Reguluses normally mean 2 snipes which can be very bad, but it also means that their team just won't have what it takes to hold off an advance.

The long and short of it is that people hate getting hit with double snipe, spit, and mines. Because of those they made a broader house rule that's pretty pointless. Doubles are fine, but seriously I draw the line at triple reg.

I've come across a couple triple regs in the demo. I actually found the triple snipe to be less of an issue than them outranging our towers about a minute into the match.

Regulus is the only DG that becomes truly problematic in a doubles or triples situation. multi-sniping can be pretty cheesy and has no effective counters. its a balance issue. 

none of the other DG's actually get abusive in doubles. i see people bring about Beast alot and think double Spit is abusive somehow. this i never understood. whats the difference between 2 spits vs. 1 spit and 1 fireball or heck, even 1 Penitence and 1 Pounce? any 2 DG's can double nuke you and produce burst damage, not sure why 2 beasts would be different than any other combo. 

and some DG's are explicitly bad in doubles because their abilities don't stack very productively. 2 Queens doesn't work very well, for example. can only have 1 Bramble Shield on you at a time. 

IT IS unbalanced, end of the story, if you dont understand why yourself you are not able to understand the explanation either

Or you simply can't provide an explanation that hasn't already been refuted.

yea ddd888 you kinda need to back it up with a reason or explanation. I have been on both sides of doubles and triples and have had no problems. Nor did anyone else in any of those games. You might have to adjust your play style, but I tend to actually laugh if someone goes doubles or triples. It means that it'll be that much easier to handle each of them instead of having to prepare a rounded build to handle a bunch of different DGs.

Weird!

In another post, I said quadruple reg might be a problem.

And someone replied that it isn't and if I didn't know why, I wouldn't understand.

Man, there's a lot I don't understand  

Doubles is doable but if the host doesnt want randoms/doubles then dont do random or find another room. It may not be necessary but if thats the host rules then whats the point of fighting with him or her about it.

As for wether or not i think its a balance issue. Well it causes headaches, maybe not imbalanced but yes its not fun alot of the time.

Someone said double UBs with spit wasnt a big deal, thats 3000 damage, but wait, UB has an instant stun... whats that a second instant stun from his buddy... did i just get spit on twice again + ooze damage x2 and whatever they AA'd me down to... was i dead 6 seconds ago? Oh my teammate came over to help and got stun locked too he's dead aswell.

Dual Reg, i can handle the double snipe, its the 12 mines they can coordinate that can really screw a game up. Some maps its ok, but try it on crucible. You'll be absolutely demolishing them and then your teammates like oooh lets buy giants because that'll win the game... and doing this before taking out those towers down where they can mine they hell out of it and lvl up at a stunning pace.

So yea, some situations its fine some demigod combos can counter doubles well, some maps make it ok to beat them. But some arent, some cant, and some dont. But the same can be said about any combination of two demigods or any team of people with some degree of skill.

But im thinking more pantheon where you cant controll that and there its just luck of the draw and thats that.

That's only if the doubles are following each other around. Sure their strengths are buffed when working together but so are their weaknesses. For UB, ranged DGs tend to work rather well as debuffing their speed.

I've heard what a coordinated quad reg team can do and that is near unstoppable unless you happen to have either Heal, Bramble Shield, or Oak Shield. And even then it's pretty tough.

I host quite a few games and i see doubles as non-problematic. Now i draw the line at triple something becuase thats wrong. And i won't let more than 1-2 people go random at once after a game with 2 UB's and 3 randoms turned into 5 UB's which is absolutely unbalanced. UB on his own is a little OP but 5 at once. The other team quit before 1 minute was up.

Now double reg in a 3vs3 game i won't allow but when it's 4vs4 or more then you can't help it. There is only 8 demigods at the moment.

Doubles break the balance quite a bit, if the players are good and work together well.

The skills become unbalanced when used together, like 2000damage snipe or spit with 300damage per second or 2 Erebus coming out of nowhere at the same time and biting you.

If doubles are played well they will tear you apart, more than a usual combo of 2 different demigods.

Why does this keep coming up. There have been like 5 threads on this already, and in each one of them its been proven that doubles are not OP. Yet these threads keep appearing. 

Those who think that they are OP tend to invent imaginary force multipliers and ignore the fact that diverse DG combinations can achieve similar (often superior) results relative to doubled combinations by simply using their own versions of the same skills.   

This issue has been resolved. Dead horse is dead. 

thats cause the first thing that matters is SKILL

finding ppl with high individual skill is hard thats why you are gonna find no problem with any setup in general

the reason of doubles being OP is pretty simple: STACKING

skills that stack makes those DG op

like regulus snipe, you can throw 2,3x or even more in a row, even from a long distance, in fact double reg is the most OP combination

than come other skills like beasts spit and others like erebus bite etc a bit less OP cause you need both chars to be in melee range and in the same area

finally those NON overpowered are the abilities that does not stack like frost TB, sedna auras, mage auras etc

for some char the advantage is even the survavibility of the demigod itself, erebus can teleport, sedna can heal etc having 2 erebus chasing you both able to teleport away after the kill to survive the opponents/towers is totally different from having a rook or a TB

Please show me a combination that can duplicate the effective range DOT of Spit x2, x3, x4, x5 while retaining the attacker's ability to retreat. Then please show me a combination that can duplicate the damage of Snipe x2, x3, x4, x5 over the maximum range of Snipe while retaining the attackers immunity from confrontation.

In any case, this topic has been discussed multiple times. Refer to the one of the other threads.

the big deal is that its F#$%ing boring playing against doubles.

buy a couple of potions? keep a better eye on your hp? there are so many counters to it. its a lame strategy, but its far from OP...

if there were working together in the first place, would really expect a fair game with pubbers as teammates?  honestly, doubles just make it easier to counter.  2+ regs means get lots of hp + pots for a burst of snipes (they run out of mana eventuallly) or if they go dps, get armor, teleport/run in their face and melee rape (regulus are squishy remember?).  tower rooks are slow movement speed wise, so capitilize on that.  double bite is pointless because do the effects really stack? i think not.

pubbers are just against the idea of teamwork because that what using doubles suggest.  using doubles suggest that the 2 doubles are going to work together to emphasize their strengths while the other team would rather not have to think too hard to figure out counters.

lets change this idea of "no doubles", i dont want to be threatened to be kicked if i want to play a perfered demigod

there's no issue with double Beast. or any other double except Regulus.

if its stunlocks from Foul Grasp, wouldn't you be EVEN MORE concerned about Boulder Roll + Foul Grasp or Mass Charm + Foul Grasp or Frost Nova + Foul Grasp? 2 Beasts is a weaker stunlock than those other partners. Foul Grasp is a total non-issue for doubles.

and double nukes of any kind is a non-issue. every DG has a nuke. any 2 DGs can double nuke if they focus fire. Spit is no different than any other nuke. 

its just Regulus. co-ordinated double sniping is cheesy and has no counters. thats the only problematic skill in the entire game, with regards to doubles. 

This is basically just repeating what transitive said, but Spit is just a nuke, which has pros and cons relative to other nukes. Sometimes 2 Spits will happen to be the best possible combination of nukes for a certain situation. Other times, you would be better served by Spit + Bite, Spit + Penitence, Spit + Pounce, etc. Therefore there is nothing OP about 2x Spit. 

Snipe is a somewhat special case, which indicates its a problem with Snipe, not doubles themselves. And even then you need 3+ snipes to make it cheesy. 

doubles = no big deal, but host's call.

We'll use Spit IV for the basis of this comparison.
(150*2)+(1500*2) = 3300. A decent whack of DMG but still acceptable.
(150*3)+(1500*3) = 4950. Possibly kill a non-HP stacking Demigod.
(150*4)+(1500*4) = 6600. Only a HP-stacking Demigod would likely survive.
(150*5)+(1500*5) = 8250. Well above what I would call acceptable.

Keep in mind that this DMG is at range, is dealt mostly over time thus allowing the attackers to retreat and can be pumped out every 7 seconds assuming there are no cooldown reducing or increasing effects in play at that time.

Spit's strength is it's overall damage. However, its weaknesses are that it has no special effects, offers little instant gratification, and has a chance to be removed and therefore prevented entirely.  

We can work out similar data for any other combination of 2-5 nukes, be they duplicated or diverse. The overall damage will be a bit less than mono-spit, but will offer other effects that in many cases will outshine mono-spit. Assuming level 4 skills: 

Spit x 2 = 3300 damage 

Spit + Penitence = 2618 damage (including Pen's effect on spit for the first 7s), plus 16% amplification of any other damage hitting the target, plus 16% snare of the target, plus a chance for an interrupt. 

Spit x 3 =  4950 damage

Spit + Penitence + Bite = 3517 damage, 16% damage amplification, 46% snare, interrupt, -700 armor, and 775 life restored to LE. 

And of course there are other factors to consider like the situational useful/unusefulness of harassing with ranged nukes, the possibility of effects being removed early by Heal 3, the influence of health regeneration and especially priest minions, etc. All in all I'd say the data shows that in most cases a diverse array of nukes not only competes with mono-spit, but is clearly superior. 

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/753116/player/34090/

Always easy win ....

Well you guys may disagree, but I think that priests pretty much fix the cheesiness of the most despised doubles.

This solution may be a bit extreme and I'm sure most people wouldn't agree, but I think it'd be interesting to remove the priest upgrade completely and make them roll out at rank 3 like archers do at rank 2.

It would pretty much remove issues with triple snipes, spits, etc. and it'd also balance out monks a bit, because seriously they're complete game changers as-is (though of coursse I'm sure lots of people prefer it that way).