A question about Alliances

from Stardock Forums
I have a question about Alliances, please. Here is the background of the question:

There is no meaningful information about alliances, what they do or don’t to anywhere, but I assumed, based on common sense and elementary logic, that an alliance would benefit my civilization in certain ways.

It was turn 900 or so and Arcean have pretty much kicked the s#&$t out of most other civs. Even Torians were seriously damaged. I became number 2 after Arcean, and I knew that they would come after me sooner or later.

About 50 turns before events I am describing, the I-League approached me with: “Friend, Arcean are butchering us, is there anything you can do to help?” (by the way, I never saw the option to ask for help available to ME in the diplomacy screen and my diplomacy ability is +120%).

I figured, most of I-League planets are much closer to Arcean controlled sectors, so if I help the I-League that could buy me some extra time to prepare for inevitable Arcean aggression. Well, after I gave the I-League a bunch of ships and weapons and armor technologies they became “Close” to me and the option for alliance became available in the diplomacy screen (again, I wonder, why do you have to be “close” to a civ to be able to offer it to enter into an alliance? There are other considerations besides “closeness”, such as the need for each other’s military help in the face of annihilation).

Anyhow, I figured this: If I ally with I-League now while they are at war with Arcean and I am not, Arcean may attack me too. I decided to wait till they actually attack me and use the peace time to build up my strength. This time came and I proposed an alliance to the I-League. They agreed. But what did I get out of it?

Nothing that I can identify.

I still cannot ask them for help or ships;

I still don’t know where their planets are (I see the colored dots on the map but when I go there everything is blacked out);

Despite my being almost at the same level of tech as Arcean they can send their ships to my space but my ships cannot reach any of the Arcean worlds. So, I hoped that the alliance with I-League would allow me to refuel at their planets and gain access to Arcean controlled space. No need to say, the alliance did not give me this option;

I see no way to share technologies or get a good deal on easy terms. If I offer the I-League a tech they don’t want in exchange for what I want I get: “And this is a good deal, HOW?” - - - some friggin alliance it is.

I still cannot tell my ally, “Look, let’s hit that planet over there, send me some reinforcements” or whatever something to that effect.

My question: Can someone, PLEASE, explain to me what this alliance nonsense is all about? What is it that I am missing? A list of a few specific options and advantages that an alliance grants would be greatly appreciated.
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't really have any answers for you other than to say that I totally agree with you. Alliances are totally useless for the most part. The only advantage I have found is that you can use them to end a game quickly through an Alliance win. I hope we get some input on this.
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
The one definite benefit, if memory serves, is that allies are more likely to join in your wars (either offensive or defensive).
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Unfortunately, you don't get the benefit of allied planets when moving through their systems (ie, the range extension). That could be a suggestion maybe for the expansion pack to actually make Alliances maybe a hair more useful. Also, get the AI to respond mroe quickly to a war is another suggestion I'd offer up.

One thing you can get away with in an Alliance is sending a HUGE buildup of ships into the ally's system if you intend to attack them. Dishonorable yes, but quite possible to use as an offensive tactic.

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
Well, from my point of view, the only thing an alliance means in Galciv is a liability waiting to happen. The ally's wars become your wars. So, allying with a minor civ is only inviting war from a major, a war that could have probably been avoided and one that the minor is usually of little help in. The only time I use an alliance is to end the game.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree WRT the limitations - this is a commonly-requested expansion pack feature - lets see what we get.

In the meantime, I use alliances A LOT in 1.05.071 - here are some of the ways/reasons:

(1) Using your example, I would ally with any and everyone who is NOT at war with the Arceans, so that when I go to war they do too. The whole reason: kill the Arcean trade routes, and don't let em have any trading partners. I usually can't get people to declare war on their trading partners any other way, especially when the trading partner is militrily no1.

(2) My other reason to ally is to protect my trade routes - I don't want a major trading partner declaring war on me, and suddenly destroying all my trade routes. The enemy AI are smart enough to bribe my trading partners into this at masochistic, so it is a real concern in my games.

(3) I don't think I get any trading benefits with my ally. However, an ally is MUCH more likely to propose a trade with me (you know, a single tech exchnage, take it or leave it), and those trades are ludicrously in my favour. Last game, and ally traded me Dreadnaught for a tech, and this game one traded me Avatar. No way anyone would have traded these to me at all, never mind for a single tech.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Actually, Ralegh, I had the Torians, who were just Friendly, offer me Dreadnaught Tech for something useless like Virus Elimination once. This was on Masochistic. I have no idea what the AI was thinking but needless to say I was quite pleased to accept.

Your allies will usually join you in war, and that alone makes alliances worthwhile in some situations.
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Is the usual alliance win scenario

Torians-Altarians-Terrans?

Doug

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
The problem with the original poster's suggestion is of his own making. The alliance was useless simply because he waited till he was strong to make it. Of course an alliance where you are the big power and your ally is a teeny one is next to useless.

I still cannot ask them for help or ships;

You can NEVER ask an minor civ for ships. If you had allied with a major civ, you could ask for ships. In fact, you can always ask a major for ships even if you aren't allied.
Also, If you are militarily the weaker of the civs, they would give you ships without asking. Happens alot.


Despite my being almost at the same level of tech as Arcean they can send their ships to my space but my ships cannot reach any of the Arcean worlds. So, I hoped that the alliance with I-League would allow me to refuel at their planets and gain access to Arcean controlled space. No need to say, the alliance did not give me this option;

If they can get to you but you cannot get to them, then either a. they have a superior Range tech to you. or
b. they have a starbase near you and you have not a starbase near them.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
#7 by Citizen Duglis - 6/15/2003 5:05:07 AM

Is the usual alliance win scenario

Torians-Altarians-Terrans?


I've done a Yor-Drengin-Terran alliance once. I broke it however and exterminated them. Otherwise it would have won. Also had a Terran-Arcean,Altarian. I ended up culturally assimilating them, however, and went on to win on my own. HEHE.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
When I've joined alliances, most of the time my senate declares war on their enemies.

When I'm at war and ally isn't, I still have to bRIBE them to attack.

What good is it?

almost No good unless you are going for alliance win.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Allies ask you to go to war with them and join you when you go to war... also, i think that the whole 'can't ally unless Close relationship' thing is BS. You'd figure that maybe an alliance could form from a Friendly relationship plus some money or techs... I think they should make it on a scale as to how easy it is to ally with someone. example:
Close relationship (both Good) 1:1 odds
Close (One Good, One chaotic Good) 3:5 odds
Friendly relationship (Both Good) 1:3 odds
Friendly (One Good, One Chaotic Good) 3:7 odds
...and so on and so forth...

or something like that... so that way you can buy your way into alliances that aren't 'Close' but the further away they are in relationship the harder it gets exponentially to join up with them.

~SDC~
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
There is a United Council resolution that, if passed, will allow allied empires to share the benefits from starbases mining galactic resources.
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Parable, at least in 1.04.62 I've been able to bribe a Friendly trading partner into Close, which allows alliances. It might have been in one of my Diplomonster-type games, though.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I think Parable's suggestion is a good one. It would make the diplomacy just a little bit more realistic.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
Alliances work against the AI as well. In half games I've played I've seen a Arcean, Altarian, Torian alliance. In each class, I'm stayed neutral, neutralized the Yorians and Drendins and then exploited the alliance. When you attack one weak power, the other senates drag the powers into the war and they've begged me for peace. I make peace, attack again, and make peace - until I'm taken everything I want and ruined their economies.

Since alliances hurt everyone equally, I'm never had a problem with them. LOL
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
When I've joined alliances, most of the time my senate declares war on their enemies.When I'm at war and ally isn't, I still have to bRIBE them to attack
End of quote


But if you wait for them...without asking them..a message will pop up usually and say We will come to your aid vs the evil _______ (who you are at war with).
You cant' ask them..you have to just wait.
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
Alliances become more useful to you the farther you fall behind the other races. I will often attempt to ally with a race both to serve as a counterbalance against other races and to ensure that I will not be attacked by my ally (or at least I've never been betrayed by an ally AI). Since the game does not give you the option of signing a non-agression pact, an alliance is the only sure way to make certain you won't go to war with someone. Just make sure to choose carefully who you sign an alliance with. You don't want to throw you lot in with the weakest race and have them drag you into a bad war and down into extinction with them.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
#4 by Veteran Gerakken - 6/15/2003 3:39:33 AM

.....allying with a minor civ is only inviting war from a major.....

Not if you build the minor up with techs and trade. That takes a long time and involves handing over virtually all of your tech and trade goods for free (or at low prices) and plenty of trade routes with trade enhancing starbases along the way. Eventually the minor fills its' orbits with battleships and dreadnoughts (with the battleship and dreadnought tech you gave it for free) all built in shipyards and Advanced Quality Control Centres (you gave the tech free) and all fleet maintenance costs paid for with revenue from the trade routes you sent to it. Oh, and the fleet has the ship enhancing trade goods that you generously provided.

The minor has this big modern fleet and it relies on you for most of its' income. The the Drengins attack you so what does the minor do? Umh, quite gratifying to see twenty or thirty, or more, Carinoid battleships and dreadnoughts coming to help out (usually very quickly). It is even more gratifying watching a minor take apart the navy of a major galactic power without my involvement in the war. (This works out nicely at "normal" difficulty, no idea if this can be done at any higher difficulty) :)
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
#11 Parable

I could not disagree more. I really dislike the idea of "buying an alliance". I like the present GalCiv setup in which you get close by swapping techs and setting up trade routes. Letting another civ get your military techs is the closest thing possible in a game to earning "trust" from the AI.

As things stand I see a certain logic to when allies will help. A very weak ally seems rather less likely to join in against a superpower which is realistic. Strong allies seem much more likely to join the war. The present model seems to work very well so I would very much like Stardock to leave it as it is. So help your ally to become very strong if you want help.

Thou shalt give if thou art to receive. ;)