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A possible way to buff Regulus and TB

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A possible way to buff Regulus and TB

from Demigod Forums

I was thinking that perhaps they need significantly higher health regen. Perhaps a lack of health is fine if their health regen were substantially higher. Monks allow generals to stay on the field longer, and each general can heal up to 2 people every 5-10 seconds for 10%-22%. If a general is at low HP, he can wait for monk healing behind a tower. Regulus and TB cannot do this, and they cannot tank either.


Here is my proposed solution: After 3 seconds of not receiving any sort of damage, both Regulus and TB will receive +65 or +75 HPS. When they start taking damage, the buff is gone. This buff is meant to help keep them out on the field, rather than make them overpowered in direct combat.


Thoughts?

demigod
17,373 views 49 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting UncleanBeast, reply 25
This in nature is an interesting concept, but also in nature, is a lost cause. To many it may appear these two are in need of a definitive buff, but consider this: They are so weak and fragile for a purpose. If their health even began to scale with others, then they could easily take them down. And yes Reg's mines can be overcome easily, but if does slow them down. Both tb and reg have amazing damage, and are in no need of a buff. Both of the two can easily take down Rook or an HP stacking UB. Reg can make mine feilds, and easily pick off targets. TB has great damage and can very well control a battle field. He can keep enemies from gaining access to their primary damage skill so often, and he can slow their attacks down. So, while many of you will aurgue against my point, i have said what I needed to. Disagree or agree, that is my opinion.
End of UncleanBeast's quote

I have to disagree, in closed form QoT has both a shield, a heal ability and a 50% regen ability and she still unable to bring down an hp stack Ub or Tb. Don't get me wrong I understand these are 3 different demigod types but still have very important similarities.

 

Each of them ar every mana dependent.

Tb and Qot Both have to form dance to make 100% of their power, and form dancing alone leaves them open.

Both TB and Qot depending on their forms has a long set up or charge time to cast a spell or have a long cooldown time

And oh ya they are very squishy.

Reply #27 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 19



Quoting Makeshift-D,
reply 18
I honestly don't think nerfing just Foul Grasp and Mist would bring UB and EB down to TB and Reg's level.Definitely not, but here's my main issue with UB/Oak/EB vs. the weaker demigods: The top 3 get a ridiculous amount of mileage out of a few specific skill points (the ones I listed) and the weaker DGs get too little mileage out of some of their skills.


 

When you just heavily nerf the top 3 to make everything fair, I think you're implying that the other DGs have abilities which all make sense and function correctly, and I just don't agree with that. That's not to say that they don't have some great abilities, just that there's so much room for improvment on those characters that there's no real reason to disenfranchise part of our already diminished player pool by making their favorite DG less fun.

 

Also lemme note that I think Angelic Fury should be changed too, it should probably have the same mana cost at all levels, as it already indirectly gets more expensive as your attack speed increases from items and levels.
End of HorseStrangler's quote

I totally understand where you're coming from, in fact I've wished in most games that weaker races / armies / civilizations be boosted rather than just the top ones nerfed.  However, I find Oak and UB to be a bit too repetitive as they currently are.  Oak's assassin build is much better than his spirit build, but I find that it is too limited.  I would prefer if the assassin build was toned down a little so that both builds could be equally viable.  UB is even more repetitive.  Every game is just HP stacking with BotF and damage stacking with Ooze and Spit.  Other builds are possible, but are not as strong.  It would be really nice to see other builds equally viable, such as speed stacking with anklet and Inner Grace, slow stacking Diseased Claws and Poisoned Dagger, and burst damaging with Bestial Wrath and BotS.

I think nerfing these demigods' strongest attributes would encourage using more varied strategies, and make the demigods more fun.  I'm tired of getting criticized when I use less effective but more various builds for the sake of personal entertainment.

SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top

There's simply no way any form of what you know of as Beastial Wrath is going to be viable early game. At level 10 UB does 226.5 DPS without any items. Max rank BW would raise that by 124 DPS, and BW is only active for 7 out of every 15 seconds (ignoring cooldown flags), costs mana, has no defensive utility, requires you to be in melee range, and hits only one target... You could halve the damage of Ooze and Ooze would still be better than Beastial Wrath.

BW is just an abilty which makes UB do batshit insane damage once he gets artifacts, it's never going to be what you're looking for. Taking it before 16-20 is pretty much always going to be a mistake, and without a complete revamp that's just how it'll always be. That being said, it's perfectly viable late game. I always have putrid flows, acclimation, and unrelenting wrath at level 20.

Much of your other issues seem to be more with itemization, specifically favor items (btw BotS is a perfectly acceptable favor item for UB, the DPS increase it provides is massive after level 4). I guess what I don't get is this: How would nerfing ooze or spit make people use a poisoned dagger? How would Beastial Wrath ever be useful at level 1, 4, 7, or 10?

Reply #29 from Demigod Forums Top

I think the idea of a higher regen is a good idea just maybe not to that extent?

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

higher regen makes me wanna strangle horses.

Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top

no , BW at its final level, does have a defensive application. It prevents UB from being slowed at all, and early game it is amazing. Ooze is great and all, but I can get easily in the 336 damage at level one, with mard's hammer BW, and basic damage gloves. With Inner beast, he can mow down towers and demigods. And i usually take ooze along with BW, giving me a small AA, and then a rapid big AA. BW is my fav UB build. And UB gets around 200 damage by level 3. Trust me man, look at my name, i know UB well.

Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top

no , BW at its final level, does have a defensive application. It prevents UB from being slowed at all, and early game it is amazing.
End of quote
Unrelenting Wrath - a level 15 skill. If you manage to hit level 15 early game (when everyone else is levels 1-8) then it probably doesn't matter what you spec, in all honesty. Go nuts with whatever zany build you want.

Ooze is great and all, but I can get easily in the 336 damage at level one, with mard's hammer BW, and basic damage gloves.
End of quote
With Mard's Hammer and Gauntlets of Brutality you would do 233 DPS. Rank 1 BW only adds 25%, meaning it adds 58.25 DPS to a zero armor target. Every DG has at least 8% armor at level 1. That means at best you're getting 53.59 DPS as long as you're in melee range, a whopping 4 DPS more than Spit, but it costs more mana, lasts 3 seconds less (meaning about 150 less damage total), and once people get scaled mail or nimoth's you're going to see that damage plummet pretty dramatically, it will actually fall behind ooze in DPS.

With Inner beast, he can mow down towers and demigods.
End of quote
What? It's 3%-9% attack speed. Don't get me wrong, that's nice, but if you're mowing down towers that's hardly the major factor behind it, especially because by level 8 you get a passive 13% attack speed increase. You're not going from 100 to 109, you're going from 113 to 122, an 8% DPS increase. Again, it's a good ability and every UB should take it, but it's not a huge deal damage-wise.

Trust me man, look at my name, i know UB well.
End of quote
You're joking, right? If you change your name will you forget how to play UB?

Reply #33 from Demigod Forums Top

lol, no, if I were to change my name, I would no forget everything.Although, yes you may be right in some aspects, but you are not adding up all of the numbers. While yes, spit is far more effective, and even has a longer effect duration, BW dramaticly increases your damage. Yes, waiting till around 16-20 is a great way, but with some crit items, and FG + ooze (ooze does pwn, i must admit), I can dominate the competition. My only source of damage is not AA, i prefer to include ooze in there. Sorry if i didnt mention that earlier. Yes, i get your point, BW does not add a signifigant amount of power, unless you already have power, but with ooze, and my stun, it does work well. Yes, the entire point of our dispute is to debate whether or not BW is effective early on. At level one, yes it can be bypassed by spit, but most of spit's damage is over time, not directly, and your AA will already be more amplified. Late game it dominates, and now, most can disagree. However, ooze and BW do work very well together. Ooze gives you a defensive buff, (less AA speed for enemies), and might as well be a secondary, but weaker AA, and BW really boosts your damage. Most are biased towards the fact of spit being far more effective, simply because it works way the hell better, and I admit it, it does, simply because it is his most basic skill. If you use BW correctly, nobody can stand a chance.I already know you will find someway to contredict what I say, thats fine. Im just makin my point here. Anyways, this is an interesting debate. Maybe we should make a post on this, to argue about which of these two skills is more effective early game. Let's see watcha got :)

Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 28
There's simply no way any form of what you know of as Beastial Wrath is going to be viable early game. At level 10 UB does 226.5 DPS without any items. Max rank BW would raise that by 124 DPS, and BW is only active for 7 out of every 15 seconds (ignoring cooldown flags), costs mana, has no defensive utility, requires you to be in melee range, and hits only one target... You could halve the damage of Ooze and Ooze would still be better than Beastial Wrath.

BW is just an abilty which makes UB do batshit insane damage once he gets artifacts, it's never going to be what you're looking for. Taking it before 16-20 is pretty much always going to be a mistake, and without a complete revamp that's just how it'll always be. That being said, it's perfectly viable late game. I always have putrid flows, acclimation, and unrelenting wrath at level 20.

Much of your other issues seem to be more with itemization, specifically favor items (btw BotS is a perfectly acceptable favor item for UB, the DPS increase it provides is massive after level 4). I guess what I don't get is this: How would nerfing ooze or spit make people use a poisoned dagger? How would Beastial Wrath ever be useful at level 1, 4, 7, or 10?
End of HorseStrangler's quote

Good response.

I think nerfing ooze would force people to be more innovative with UB.  The way I see it, HP stacking is only good when a demigod has high auto attack.  For example, you wouldn't be as effective trying to HP stack with Reg, TB, QoT, or DA as you would going for mass mana.  If you take down UB's AA damage output a bit, maybe players won't try to HP stack as much with him, and will go for burst damage builds.  I agree, Bestial Wrath needs a workover, but I'd still like to see UB have more assassin related play styles, rather than playing like a general and being a tank every game.

Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top

Honestly I don't know what else to say. It does less damage, costs more mana, and has less utilty than spit. :/

Pick any level and any gear level and try out the numbers, demigoddb still has accurate stats for most items, but you can always start up a game and just see the numbers directly for yourself if you're using items that have been improved since demigoddb was created.

Also I'm confused about why you would use Mard's Hammer. Why not just use BotS? You literally never need a mana item if you use it, if you replace a single helm with a DPS (or HP) item it's a significant gain, don't forget BotS has +25 damage on it to boot.

Reply #36 from Demigod Forums Top

btw, ive worked on tweak for UB focused on BW. ive reduced the cost and cast time slightly with a shorter follow through time.

i will post the whole thing soon along with reg. When i post these up in the modding section, plz give feedback.

Reply #37 from Demigod Forums Top

Good response.

I think nerfing ooze would force people to be more innovative with UB. The way I see it, HP stacking is only good when a demigod has high auto attack. For example, you wouldn't be as effective trying to HP stack with Reg, TB, QoT, or DA as you would going for mass mana. If you take down UB's AA damage output a bit, maybe players won't try to HP stack as much with him, and will go for burst damage builds. I agree, Bestial Wrath needs a workover, but I'd still like to see UB have more assassin related play styles, rather than playing like a general and being a tank every game.
End of quote
Are you counting Ooze as part of UB's AA? Because without Inner Beast, he actually has weak or mediocre autoattack.

Reply #38 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting gkrit, reply 36
btw, ive worked on tweak for UB focused on BW. ive reduced the cost and cast time slightly with a shorter follow through time.

i will post the whole thing soon along with reg. When i post these up in the modding section, plz give feedback.
End of gkrit's quote
I have to say I'm skeptical. Bear in mind Spit can have 100% uptime from outside melee range while BW at most is going to have 7 seconds of uptime out of every 15 seconds, and that's assuming someone is in melee range for the whole duration. So obviously the shorter range, more difficult to use ability needs to outdps the easy to use one, Spit by a pretty significant margin, but also it can't modify end-game stats so dramatically that it's game over. Most games don't break 15+, but some do and it shouldn't be a free win for a UB with wrath just because people want it to be effective at lower levels, so just increasing the % of damage done really isn't a viable option.

That's why I say nothing similar to how the ability works now is going to make sense as a low level skill. Right now though it fits absolutely perfectly as a late game skill. It's absolutely amazing, so whatever solution you provide has gotta outweigh the benefits of how it currently is. Let's talk numbers when you post your proposed changes. Personally I'm very happy with it as-is, as I said I get it every game that goes over 15 and it's really nice knowing that an even fight from 1-15 is going to be a blowout in my favor from 15+.

Reply #39 from Demigod Forums Top

Question does Blade of the Serpant work with spit damage?

Oh and I do think that Regulus and TB should recieve a larger amount of regen, but DA should be included as well for one simple reason
Not only is he as weak as Regulus and TB with a variety of long range attacks but he also has to get into melee range to deal damage. I think a higher regen or health would benefit him much much more.
Maybe give them a higher mana regen as well? I mean I know TB has a high regen already but he is a very mana intensive character so giving him a higher regen wouldn't exactly be a bad thing

Reply #40 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Makeshift-D, reply 34

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 28There's simply no way any form of what you know of as Beastial Wrath is going to be viable early game. At level 10 UB does 226.5 DPS without any items. Max rank BW would raise that by 124 DPS, and BW is only active for 7 out of every 15 seconds (ignoring cooldown flags), costs mana, has no defensive utility, requires you to be in melee range, and hits only one target... You could halve the damage of Ooze and Ooze would still be better than Beastial Wrath.

BW is just an abilty which makes UB do batshit insane damage once he gets artifacts, it's never going to be what you're looking for. Taking it before 16-20 is pretty much always going to be a mistake, and without a complete revamp that's just how it'll always be. That being said, it's perfectly viable late game. I always have putrid flows, acclimation, and unrelenting wrath at level 20.

Much of your other issues seem to be more with itemization, specifically favor items (btw BotS is a perfectly acceptable favor item for UB, the DPS increase it provides is massive after level 4). I guess what I don't get is this: How would nerfing ooze or spit make people use a poisoned dagger? How would Beastial Wrath ever be useful at level 1, 4, 7, or 10?

Good response.

I think nerfing ooze would force people to be more innovative with UB.  The way I see it, HP stacking is only good when a demigod has high auto attack.  For example, you wouldn't be as effective trying to HP stack with Reg, TB, QoT, or DA as you would going for mass mana.  If you take down UB's AA damage output a bit, maybe players won't try to HP stack as much with him, and will go for burst damage builds.  I agree, Bestial Wrath needs a workover, but I'd still like to see UB have more assassin related play styles, rather than playing like a general and being a tank every game.
End of Makeshift-D's quote
TB + Bots literally proves this post false man.

Reply #41 from Demigod Forums Top

One of the most obvious buffs for Reg is a speed boost for angelic fury, since 'this would be faster with wings' dammit.

Reply #42 from Demigod Forums Top

regulus does not need buffs, tb probably.(why just fixing fire mode aa could go a long way, deep freeze needs a buff it deals pitiful damage not to mention the target loses the debuffs you placed on him...)

If you're gonna buff regulus, his mines must be nerfed a bit to compensate.

Reply #43 from Demigod Forums Top

While mines are Reg's best weapon, it's also basically his only effective weapon; nerfing mines would completely cripple him.

Reply #44 from Demigod Forums Top

Massive massive amounts of fail here. Spirit oak is certainly competitive and imho better than assasin oak. In addition you completly missed the point of hybrid builds.(I agree with UB though).

 

The problem is not that TB and REG dont have enough regen or health or whatever but that there damage is SHIT.

Fireball: 300/550/850/1050/1350 & slightly higher range(that totally doesn't matter) &easiy interruptable & need fire form to cast.

Spit: 650/950/1300/1650/2150 & slightly more mana needed.

 

who the fuck thought up these numbers? 

And UB is a melee char. Nerf Spit, buff fireball easy.

Reply #45 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 44
Massive massive amounts of fail here. Spirit oak is certainly competitive and imho better than assasin oak. In addition you completly missed the point of hybrid builds.(I agree with UB though).

 

The problem is not that TB and REG dont have enough regen or health or whatever but that there damage is SHIT.

Fireball: 300/550/850/1050/1350 & slightly higher range(that totally doesn't matter) &easiy interruptable & need fire form to cast.

Spit: 650/950/1300/1650/2150 & slightly more mana needed.

 

who the fuck thought up these numbers? 

And UB is a melee char. Nerf Spit, buff fireball easy.
End of lifekatana's quote

I just find it weird that spit always hits. It should be more like boulder roll. You should have to aim. Just that would really make it more interesting.

Reply #46 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 45

Quoting lifekatana, reply 44Massive massive amounts of fail here. Spirit oak is certainly competitive and imho better than assasin oak. In addition you completly missed the point of hybrid builds.(I agree with UB though).

 

The problem is not that TB and REG dont have enough regen or health or whatever but that there damage is SHIT.

Fireball: 300/550/850/1050/1350 & slightly higher range(that totally doesn't matter) &easiy interruptable & need fire form to cast.

Spit: 650/950/1300/1650/2150 & slightly more mana needed.

 

who the fuck thought up these numbers? 

And UB is a melee char. Nerf Spit, buff fireball easy.
I just find it weird that spit always hits. It should be more like boulder roll. You should have to aim. Just that would really make it more interesting.
End of monarch_dodra's quote
I would rather not have spit stackable.

Reply #47 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting synnworld, reply 46

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 45

I just find it weird that spit always hits. It should be more like boulder roll. You should have to aim. Just that would really make it more interesting.

I would rather not have spit stackable.

End of synnworld's quote

Um, nobody mentioned stack, I believe. And Boulder roll doesn't stack either, it just misses. I find it strange that vomit come somehow home on it's target.

Reply #48 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 47

Quoting synnworld, reply 46
Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 45

I just find it weird that spit always hits. It should be more like boulder roll. You should have to aim. Just that would really make it more interesting.
I would rather not have spit stackable.

Um, nobody mentioned stack, I believe. And Boulder roll doesn't stack either, it just misses. I find it strange that vomit come somehow home on it's target.
End of monarch_dodra's quote

It's heat seeking vomit.

Reply #49 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 20

I was thinking to cut the life bonus of all items by 50% and double the regen rates.

eg: Blood of the Fallen = 400 life +10 regen.
Banded = 200 Health + 10 Regen

The will help all DGs who rely more on powers instead of direct attacks, and perhaps make other items more viable choices since health stacking is the best way to play right now.I disagree. That would make Erebus's bite heal a larger percentage of total health, it would make a spit and run UB more devestating, not to mention a hybrid beast would deal enough damage to pretty much kill you outright by the end of the first stun, and Oak would be able to penitence kite people to death more easily, not to mention the dramatic power increase minion swarms would see.


The currently weak DGs are not necessarily the highest damage ones. Granted getting hit by 6 mines is a lot of damage, but I don't think a net HP loss will favor the weaker DGs, it'd be a wash at best.
End of HorseStrangler's quote

In retrospect, you are correct now that I've tried my idea out with some live players and a mod.

Removing the health stacks doesn't add any new strategy. It simply makes tanking the lane impossible. 

If anything it makes less strategy, as lane control simply devolves to mexican standoff gameplay and certain DGs get out of whack.

So my new premise is to bring up the other items into helping fulfill other strategic roles.... and no, this is not to say they should be modded to be used as tank busters.

I'll make a brand new post to hopefully get some more ideas.... but there are roles to make lane control more strategic using the unused items. eg: There is the tank, kite, striker roles etc... the items could get some minor tweaks or new minor abilities to help fulfill these in other more subtle ways.

eg: Not saying this wouldn't be imba, but a certain item could get a small mana drain when it does damage, so once the health stacked tank is out of mana, it's harder for the tank to regen mana and use powers more frequently. This doesn't prevent him from tanking the lane, but it prevents the tank from using powers in a confrontation upfront and then chasing behind a tower for a kill knowing that mana will regen just in time to use a power once more for the final exchange of blows.