Demon Assassin Build - "The Viable" - UPDATED

I pretty much agree here. I play this build and I like it. As you said any melee char needs that 6-7k hp by level 10. What I find DA weak at is AA. I mean his AA is nothing compared to an Ooze UB or the kind of damage Oak can generate at level 10 (I hope they will buff his AA at some point). thats why I think if you play DA, u really need the level advantage over your opponents. Most games finish a couple of level before 15, but if you can get there when everybody is lvl 13-14, you really have an edge over your enemies.

This is a solid, but you have to play it smart and out level your enemies to really shine with DA. use your speed from the your passive to cap the exp flag in cata between creeps. minimize your tips back to base. I would also suggest to play SOLO the mana lane in cata with support from an ally monk to level up faster.

about the items, I try to make room for assassin's footguard for the %doge (really good with elusiveness) + %attack speed.

Tightened the build up slightly to get speed and swap at level 5 and added the assassin boots.  I will try the boots, although I'm quite fond of the hp/sec regen on hauberk and wraps.

25% dodge = +33% health... that's really good, and 40% dodge is badass.

Yeah, that's good.  Also deceiving to the opponent.  I just want to make sure you realize the footguards are 10% right?  Not 25%.  40% would only be possible with that insane 12000g cloak.

Added bold font for protips.

Generally I like the build.  Thanks for throwing it together and I dig how you've organized it.  1 thought, though, regarding your starting items.  Why scaled helm instead of scalemail?  I'd think the extra damage mitigation would be of > value than additional mana for warp strike.  A little extra staying power is nice.  Thoughts?

Getting scalemail first vs something like an Erebus is probably a good idea.  I spend a lot of time in the first few levels running back and forth between the flags and killing grunts near towers.  I don't attempt to hold flags vs other demis for too long.  I prefer to be the guy running back and forth.  The extra mana from the scaled helm helps me warp back to grunts on flags and cap them faster for xp and bonuses.  Plus it helps to get back to the flag faster as he's slow at killing grunts and the extra time saved allows him to kill more.

So basically, I use Warp I a decent amount.  Maybe moreso for movement than staying power in those early levels where your towers aren't really threatened anyway.  Plus its more fun to use mana :)  But yeah, go ahead and get scalemail if you prefer, that's not a bad choice by any means.  Also, these item choices are mainly for Cataract.

Also to keep in mind regarding his Auto Attack, yes it's weaker than an Ooze beast or Oak, but it's also unavoidable following a warp strike.  You can sort of dance to avoid a beast's AA, but not the DA.  If he wants to AA you, he will.  Which is why he works so well in 2 v 1 situations.

If it comes to a 3 v 3 to the death, DA is not ideal unless you've got something like Rook tower farm on your side, or your own towers backing them up.  Then try to pick off the DG on the team you feel is weakest or least likely to escape, and shadow swap them into a position your team can gank.

I always had major trouble with killing waves with the DA. I find there is no way around "Nature's Wreckoning" if your team mates can't completly deal with the creeps by themselves. It probably even outclasses Slayer Wraps in 1v1 until very late in game if you consider the price.

I've tried Reckoning on other builds but felt too squish with it.  I will try it on this one, though.  Perhaps replacing banded armor or scalemail with it before Narmoth's.  I will see how well it aids my creepability.  Even with reckoning, DAs ability to handle waves of grunts is still pretty pathetic at best.  I definitely recommend teaming with an aoe capable DG.

I will add it to the guide for now.  Let me know if you think it's in a good spot.

This is THE best demon assassin build.  Am I right? 

Haven't tested this one very much but I think adding spine attack would gain me personnaly more since then you have an enourmous damage output.

i don't know if its me but i seem to level really slowly with this build . me + 4 nightmare AI vs 5 nightmare AI. the AIs hit lv 20 earlier than i do . is there something wrong somewhere ? i find the damage output of this build really low .

i was think of getting SoR and being able to spam spine attack and warp strike as it would drastically improve your overall dps .

a good offence is a good defence . your maximum spike is what ? 1.4k + a few hits ? what if they have higher move speed than you ? you wouldn't even be able to catch them . this is where the long range spine attack comes in. being an assassin, i feel that it's better than you kill with spike attacks than to pressure . generals on the other hand cannot deal as much DPS and therefore they pressure . i'm not saying generals can't spike . yes they sure can .

Ok, this build is not designed for farming Nightmare cpu.  The cpu is stupid, so probably the build with the highest dps will be able to farm them the fastest.  This is not that build.  This build is for playing online.

This build is about making coordinated warp strikes (2 v 1 situations in your favor) followed by shadow swaps to punish other DGs enough to push them out of the lane.  Sometimes you'll get kills.  Most of the time you'll get map control, and a severely wounded opponent.  That is also good.  Auto-attack and speed is your friend.  You get a lot of hp and speed and dodge so you can hold a lane like a real man.

Also I'd like to mention that the 'build' isn't everything.  You have to play the build the way it was meant.  I will try to get some good replays added soon.

Just want to say, as a good DA player, I think this build is rubbish  

Care to say why?  If you're stomping n00bs and comps you might as well go a spine/warp build.  Against GOOD players I feel like those builds require too much mana and go squish.  HP stacking is always win, and this build has just enough tools to get the job done.

I think you're playing it wrong.  Reps coming soon, k?

Fair enough dude.  But with 4 games on statsI think you might have spent more time on the post than in DG .  Maybe not, maybe the build does work in some cases.  

Here's my thoughts:

Your build does insufficient damage and will just flounder around trying to get flags unable to get kills and DA can't hold  a position very well regardless what you try to do with him (orb of veiled storms helps though).

You are getting swap at level 5; well done.

You are hp stacking a DA; going to go against the grain a bit here and tell you my thoughts on that.  I think that's roughly on the same level as trying to make a rook fast

I will post my build at some point.  I already have a lot of replays collected of me winning as DA against good players.

regards

shred_demon

Those stats aren't entirely accurate.  I played a number of games recently that haven't been updated yet in that menu, and a good number of my DA wins were ended with some type of disc hack.  Also I've been playing DA since before his official release with the mod.  I've tested a variety of builds with him.  I do like the Essence of Magic build and I don't use this one exclusively but that build is significantly weaker early game and I feel like a lot of momentum comes from that.  And you have to be very very careful vs erebus and beast with that build.

Also- on the 'speed rook' the DA is a bit of a paradox in himself.  He's a melee caster.  Yeah he has burst but how is he supposed to have sustained damage without trading blows?

This build tries to solve the problems of a DA that everyone complains about.

-he's squishy

-he's slow

-he needs too much mana

Squishy?  Well now he's got Blood, only 1 helm, and 15-25% dodge depending on item choices.  He CAN tank.

Slow?  Well Demon Speed will solve that without wasting a valuable item slot, plus it paves the way to Assassin's Speed which is quite powerful at 15.

Mana?  Now you only have to worry about 2 spells.  Warp Strike, and Swap.

Yes, this build is lower (burst) dps than a warp/spine build.  But you have Shadow Swap, and an ally who is a beast going to town on him after you swap the dg in his claws.  Is that not DPS?  So you kill the DG in 5 seconds instead of 4.  Oh noes.  With the extra hp and dodge and speed you can run deeper into towers to compensate for lack of spine attack.

I should probably mention this build is designed for the most popular game settings - 3 v 3 cataract.  I have not tested it enough in 4v4 or more.

I'd also just like to say that high level DG is not as much about getting kills as much as it's about capping flags, pushing other DGs off, and not dying.  This build drastically reduces the number of times you're gonna say "Ah crap... I'm about to get owned." because you're a high hp bully with speed and a sigi up your sleeve at all times.  You run around with low hp it's like you've got a bullseye on your forehead.

Also it sounds like you've tried this build 0 times so I can assure you I've played it more than that.  I consider myself a pretty good player, and I wouldn't post a build with my name on it if I thought it was a piece of crap.  I've got a serious Demigod reputation at stake here.

Yeah this is fine and all.  But HP stacking a DA... I feel you'd be as well playing as Sedna At least then you could heal your allies...

You're not getting any damage items so your auto attack will be rubbish.

You won't do much damage to demigods in group fights. 

You're unlikely to get many solo opportunistic (right place at the right time) kills.

You won't do much damage to towers.  That or cause you're spending so much time hacking away at them with a weak AA you will easily get ganked...

You won't be able to hold a lane (DA can't hold a lane regardless what you do to him against most demis).  I mean you might be able to stand in a lane for a while with all that HP you've got.  But what good will that do ?  Stay there till you need to go back to heal again?  Waste of time IMO.

The Build is expensive so if you are following this build to the letter you will have a lack of citadel upgrades.

Your role is solely limited to:

a) not dying

b) running for flags

c) doing swaps (and this will only be useful assuming you have competent teammates which, so often is not the case)

Also, this plan assumes a giants victory.  There is no  plan here for what happens if the game goes to artifacts.  I have a viable rich game build for DA (Ananais saw it in action the other day ^^).

IMO DAs most powerful aspect is that I can get a kill with him as early sometimes as 45 seconds into a match.  This build misses out on that.

Maybe it's just a very different way of play to how my mind works when I play DA.  I'll look forward to seeing a few people trying this out.  It'll be interesting to play against good players using this build.

Maybe in a 3v3 assuming you have strong players that know how to react to swaps well (a lot of players don't anticipate it) it will work well. 

But then again, I get swap at level 5 too...If you warp strike immediately back to the targets location, spine, run and leave your ally to finish the job, where is the value in all that hp?  Why not just carry a couple of potions? 

So i'm not sure if winning with this build really proves the build is good.  It will prove you as a player are great at flag control and are great at setting up swaps (and this I believe may be true dude :)) and will prove that your teammates are great at anticipating and reacting well to your swaps (you're probably playing with friends...).  But that doesn't prove to me that any of the item choices or the bulk of the skill order is the reason you that you may have won...

I think part of the way of playing DA well is using mana wisely.  Don't do pointless spines, warps and swaps.  These moves are to kill and shouldn't be used until there is an opportunity to kill.

Ack, lunch over.  Got to get back to work now i suppose... :/

Have a good one dude

Per ntropy's suggestion I actually added Nature's Reckoning to the item lineup.  It helps with dps and killing grunts.  So I do get damage items now.

After a swap and shadow strike I don't leave my ally to finish the job.  I auto-attack/warp strike finish it with him.  I pretty much just substitute spine attack for more aggressive auto attacking and repeated warp strikes.

I agree the DA is about using mana wisely.  This sort of makes it a bit easier by restricting what you can use mana on and focusing on Warp Strikes, which aren't bad at all and have a pretty low cooldown.  I think there is decent dps in constant warp striking.  You can get away with using warp more because you don't need mana for spine, and the added suvivability makes it less risky to do so.

Spine Attack is a good opener/finisher.  I do use a spine build vs. teams with support like Sed or Queen you may need spine to help finish the job.  Also if you have your own support, assuming they're not terrible, it's probably recommended to go spine/warp build for added dps.  In that case I still prefer pretty much the same items and Essence of Magic favor.  But I've also tried this hp build vs a queen and/or sed with success.

High HP is intimidating when holding a flag. If you can hold a lane and kill grunts, you're winning, assuming it doesn't take 2-3 of you to hold a lane vs 1 dg.

Then again, maybe this build is terrible, and I am just a really good player.  HP stacking and sigils have proven to be overpowered and this build sort of abuses that as well.  That's why I'm curious to see how other players fair with it.  I may fine tune it in the future to include spine attack, probably switching out elusiveness.  That triple level 15 combo is pretty fun, though.  And 15% dodge is definitely noticeable when you have all that hp.

Hehe - we need a section in the strat forum for lousy builds for good players

Nightmare CPUs get twice the experience that you do for the same actions.  Hard CPUs get 1.5 times as much.  So it is normal for them to hit level 20 while you are level 12-14 or so.

"High HP is intimidating when holding a flag. If you can hold a lane and kill grunts, you're winning."

This about sums up what I think here:

The only circumstance a DA will be able to out HP stack and scare away a good player using oak/sedna/rook/UB/ere is a game that you have already won 10 minutes ago :/.

If the game is neck on neck with good players and no team has significantly more gold than the other, I don't think a somewhat "hp stacked" low damage DA would stand up.  

I've experimented with the entire DA skill tree and different item combinations.  I'm really not convinced dude .  But as I said, I'd need to face good players using this strategy.  Mind you I've already minced quite a few hp stacked DAs.  Maybe they just weren't good?     

An earlier comment was about trading blows and how DA can do that without sustained damage.  Imo that comes down to the time value of DA's attacks.  Damage now is worth more than damage later; like in economics, returns now are worth more than returns later because of the time value of them.  

This is why I think a high amount of damage in a short space of time is more valuable than a drawn out AA.  For example, using AA, assuming you are successful in getting the kill, might take 8 seconds; in this case you don't have that long, you have 3.  Even if you had the hp to survive you would have to retreat before you could kill.

DA can do a lot of damage in 1 seconds before you're opponent has thought about what skill to use against you.  You don't want to be in engaged combat long.  You want to do enough damage to scare them and make them retreat, chase them, then do the damage again.  Then you can add a swap for luck ^^.  A lot of this comes down to surprise I think.  Not overpowering enemies like UB/ere.  He's an assassin; this means you pick on the wounded, the retreating, and the unaware.  

Thank you for one of the more well formed discussions concerning the viability of a particular DG build.  The summary of arguments for and against this build seem well thought out and laced with a fair degree of critical thinking.  It's very refreshing :)  I am anxious to try this set-up out as I feel I am overly dependent upon Spine Attack, and have generally disfavored Warp Strike. 

I've only used DA twice now.  I went with the spike throw ability instead of elusiveness, but I used a mostly similar build.