Hey Shimmer, Glad to hear it, we've honestly been needing to redo the balancing for awhile now. Thanks so much for the help!

My first post on this forum!!

I just want you generous, unselfish, gentlemen to know that the ONLY reason I bought Trinity was for THIS mod!

(I know nothing about modding games, just playing them.)

I'm not what you would call a "hardcore" Trek fan but I did see one of the movies.

You gentlemen have gone above and beyond!

I wish I could shake everyones hand and buy each a drink to show my sincere apprecation for your hard work and personal sacrifice that has made this old man very happy.

Sadly, I'm not financially able to make this wish true.....so.....all I can give is a

Thank you, thank you, very,very, much!

                                             Your obedient, loyal, fan

                                                   Mutterfudder

BTY

When I mean old man..........my first computer was a Com-64 ( that I had to pay an arm and leg for )  just so I could play Star Trek: Kobyashi Maru.

LOL! I still have that game!  

in the beginning we never wanted to add the borg, but do to the very high demand and Loki's mod, we had to tie all together. it is very very difficult to balance a race with such overwhelming firepower and abilities like the borg. It was one of the reasons why i had the borg ships take up more slots than any other race. I had given them a ratio of 4:1. so the borg ships would take 4x more slots and costs than a ship of the same role in the federation. this kept the population down, however they had 4x the firepower and armor than any ship in the same role as the feds. They do not have shields but they do have 4x the repair amount. it kept the AI from making too many capital ships if you staied on top of them, and gave for some interesting battles. However you would be in for it, if it had expanded too much. They will overwhelm you on large maps, challenging on medium maps and easy on small maps.   

http://www.moddb.com/downloads/david

here's a map I made of the star trek universe to go along with the mod.  It has fixed starting positions (player:federation then klingons, romulans, dominion, and borg in that order) let me know what you think and how I can make it better.  I love constructive critisicm

So if the federation has to be first player can we only play as federation?

No, you can change which slot the human player goes in.

You've missed my point entirely, both you and psycloak. I'll spell it out clearly and precisely so you don't miss it. If you look at them, the Borg don't change if they don't assimilate advanced technology. Their main advantage over the Federation is the technology they had assimilated to date was better than what the Federation had to offer, but even in seeing what happened between Best of Both Worlds and First Contact you can see that the Federation is very quickly catching up to the Borg, who beat a larger fleet in BoBW since Federation weapons pretty much didn't even dent them.

From what I saw of your tech trees, you start at the start of the Federation, Klingons, whatever, and go to the future, the pinnacles of the races as they are hinted in Star Trek. If that's true, you are overlooking the fact that the Federation is clearly shown in the series to advance the quickest. (Star Trek Enterprise is them leaving Earth, TNG movies have quantum torpedoes and time travel, after just 200 years.) Sins of a Solar Empire is by it's nature supposed to be a long scale game. Several of the researches that happen in the game would take many years to develop were they put into any storyline. Based on this, in a longer game, the advantage should go to the Federation because of how much they can develop.

The Borg should rather be the force you fear in the beginning and middle of the game. The Borg should start off strong and stay at the same amount of strength, making few advances as all, as happens in the series. Each race should have its individual strengths. For the Feds, it should be starting off weak and researching into strength, making one ship worth two from the Klingons. For the Klingons, and in some senses the Dominion, it should be massed numbers. (Think old school Soviet Union.) Romulans have stealth, maybe some technologies to negate even detection when they warp from planet to planet. And every race should be able to research to a point where a fleet is not needed to kill a single Borg Cube.

yea i just don't agree with your point here. Just because the Borg can kick the crap out of the feds, klingons, romulan, dominion, etc. does not mean they are going to stop assimilating technology. even if the feds are technologically advancing faster than the other known races, the borg aren't going to stop advancing the technology they already have or stop assimilating new ones. after all the borg did pick a fight with a race that is on par with them, Species 8472. you don't honestly believe they would stop going after them, if they are still fighting the federation. I think you've forgotten an entire piece of important lore here.

I usually hate to chime in without notice: So Stress and team very good job on the mod!

Now Rupture, I think you failed to read what's up top, establishing that this takes place in an alternate original, TNG timframe, in 2388. The Borg as we know them from BoBW, may have been foiled, but we know (by Voyager's failed attempt of potraying them) that they indeed still assimilate, but on a more aggressive scale, and rarely at all. In all truths, one cube, will be able to take out a sizable fleet....period. Add that on top of the fact that they are a COLLECTIVE HIVE ENTITIY, rarly would you see cubes alone. One cube, is merely the herald, expect to meet you're death soon after.

Of course, that's not to say, the COMBINED efforts of the other major races can't possible beatback the Borg. In this mod, from what i can gather, all the "upgrades" Voyager got, means abosultely nothing anymore. The Borg, made a mistake and underestimated the humans, all the while, the federation, merely "out-witted" them by "luck".

Simple: If the Borg can't have it, no one can. And well...we're all shot to hell then....

My near photographic memory regarding movies serves me well.  You should watch the stuff again.

First, the idea that they only make advancements through assimilation may be true, but it's less than spelled out and does not rule out adaptation to a given scenario based on preexisting knowledge that simply wasn't of optimal use previously.

Second, traveling back in time to wipe out the Federation before it was created is not something they tried the first time around.

Third, the fleet in First Contact did no such thing.  The survey of the state of things on the arrival of the Enterprise was that minimal damage had been done to the Borg.  It was Picard being jacked into the hive mind and telling everyone to shoot a weak spot he discovered that got them a free kill on an apparently unimpeded cube.

Fourth, they sent the Enterprise E off to go play in the neutral zone.  They were so confident they had sufficient forces to defeat it that they could spare the most advanced ship in the fleet just in case Picard couldn't handle the encounter.  This implies, as they were utterly destroyed the last time around, that they had a much larger fleet available to engage it.

The fleet got smoked, cheap cigar style.  Is the Federation a bigger bad ass the second time around?  Yes.  It's an amoeba instead of a protozoa.

amoeba's can make you sick

Only after you eat them.

Humans adapt to live, the borg live to adapt. Even with all the technological advances the feds have been making, a single ship assimilated with any of that technology or anyone on board having knowledge of it, would instantly tip the scales back into the borg's favor.

So why all of the flames, fuss, and drama for borg features (be it canon or made up) that we more than likely can NOT duplicate in sins?

Lol good point stress, perhaps we should start a thread just for it lol

Well then, I guess this mod, like most of the other Star Trek mods and games, will fall short of whatever expectations and/or hopes people who have watched Star Trek their entire lives hope for it. Gentlemen, I am ashamed to call this a Star Trek mod, when in all actuality it is only the future of the JJ Abrams Star Trek movie, that is to say, an action flick in the clothing of one of the greatest scifi genres in history. I shall therefore call it crap and anyone who asks me about it, shall be told the same.

If you think this is following the JJ Abrams movie than you have no idea what real Trek is. Good attempt at the troll though.

How?

You took the words right out of my mouth stress   

.

LOL real adult let me tell you! and we care not . The fact remains your not the one doing anything for the mod. But acting like a 9 year old that has been spanked. Grow up , your really dont get it about sins and soa2  do you. Code wise we are some what limited with sins hard coding , and as such everyone should be very happy with what soa2 brings to the table. We have instituted numerous amounts of workarounds to deliver a almost seamless gaming experince . Some of the mod is still a wip and as such is still being worked on. The borg have what  they  have at this time and thoughts are going into all of the research & etc , no one ever  said this is the final product.  We are taking abilities  ideas and submissions for the mod on the debug page. Feel free to make something send it to us with some notes and we will take a look at it. or fill out a idea submission form.  Its easy to nit pick some one elses countless hours of work , but the fact remains you are making this mod, nor helping with childish tantrums.

jtaylorpcs 

(\B):vulcan:(\B)

...wow. I have to say that your comment is extremely hurtful and ignorant.  You obviously have no idea what our limitations are in regards to fitting Star Trek into the Sins engine, not to mention the thousands of man hours we've put into the work so far.  This statement alone makes your character evident, but I would assume you don't treat people like this face-to face.  That would surely lead to a lonely and bitter lifestyle...  I suppose all I can ask is that you not use the internet as some kind of mask and treat us with the same respect you treat people in your daily life. 

In regards to your argument, I feel like you have a point somewhat, but you've stopped a few yards short of the finish line.  It's true that the Federation funneled a massive amount of time and resources into developing technology that could defend them against the borg; however, the nature of the collective is to adapt and assimilate.  Sure, transphasic torpedoes may have taken out cubes in a single volley during the Voyager finale, and that may have only continued for  another couple dozen or even hundreds of cubes.  Based on everything we've been given, we know that the borg are willing to sacrifice ships and drones in order to even have the opportunity to experience unfamiliar advanced technology.  Those experiences then lead to analyses and finally to adaptation to assimilation.  (Not to mention those torpedoes were from 25 years into the future.) 

On the flip side of the coin, you say the Federation is proven in Star Trek lore to be able to match the collective, and you state it as an absolute.  I'm confused about where this information came from.  Surely you aren't referring to "Best of Both Worlds".  Federation technology didn't destroy that cube; through Locutus, Data simply instituted a basic regeneration cycle which lead to a systems-wide overload.  Not to mention the massacre of Wolf 359.  That's like dredging up memories of the Alamo or Little Big Horn. 

You couldn't possibly have been referring to "Descent", either.  That borg ship overpowered the Enterprise easily, which was only able to survive by use of its new metaphasic shielding while hiding inside a star's corona.  Again, Federation technology didn't destroy the vessel, but did help to protect the Enterprise by allowing it to evade a direct conflict.  Due to the shear ingenuity of the crew, technology was adapted in a pinch.  I say that's progress, but far from any that could remotely be considered battle-worthy. 

First Contact is the first time that we see a borg cube destroyed by Federation weapons, but note that they were all targeted on coordinates Picard knew about due to his connection to the collective.  Prior to the Enterprise's arrival, the cube had already overcome one unseen fleet (read: destroyed or plowed through with survivors continuing on to Earth as well) and then made it's way to sector 001 where a second fleet had inflicted only minimal damage.  Phaser's and photons clearly weren't doing the trick.  I'd say the quantum torpedoes, which were known at the time to only exist on board the Defiant and Enterprise, did the trick (especially after the sphere was taken out by a measly four torpedoes). 

Then we jump over to the Delta Quadrant and see how Voyager is dealing with the borg.  Did they ever destroy a single cube?  They destroyed a probe by beaming a torpedo casing on board, which means they still didn't overcome the ship in a fire fight.  Though the borg were de-mystified (thus the waning fear felt by the audience), Voyager was still easily out-classed as well, even after their guest 29th century drone enhanced their defensive systems.  Jump to the finale, now.  The sphere containing Voyager emerges from the transwarp conduit and is bombarded by weapons from some of the most advanced ships in the fleet (Prometheus and Defiant classes).  No damage was done to the sphere.  No damage! 

So, in conclusion, only one cube has ever been destroyed by Starfleet weapons in direct confrontation.  One!!!   Plus a tiny scout sphere that had no shields after traveling through a temporal wake.  The collective has THOUSANDS of cubes and TRILLIONS of drones at it's disposal.  How can anyone possibly even imagine that the borg could be defeated by the Federation if they focused a significant amount of resources on conquering the human race?

Now, considering assimilation.  Voyage had the perfect defense againt the borg in the finale.  The ablative hull armor was practically impenetrable...until they assimilated the knowledge.  Bam!  Defense advantage gone.  That's all it takes for the borg to overcome a technological disadvantage.  One ship of Stafleet officers is all it would take. 

What I'm trying to say is that the Borg Collective is relentless, adaptable, and efficient.  Make no mistake about it.  They will not be stopped by the Federation alone if they come in full force.  Even if Starfleet could develop some kind of new superweapon to overcome a cube, how long would it last before it's technology is assimilated? 

Now, with that said, I suggest you read some of the TNG 8th season reboot novels.  Six of them are devoted entirely to the borg.  Three involve a renegade group of drones, and the Destiny trilogy actually explores an all-out invasion of the Federation and it's neighbors.  Even with the help of transphasic torpedoes, the hopeless situation seems like a crushing weight to our heroes and the Federation at large.  I won't spoil the ending if you haven't read them yet, but it also supports my arguments. 

So, I suppose the point everyone has been trying to make is that these Borg are as true to the real deal (in relative terms, naturally) as they're going to get.  No amount of tantrums is going to change that.  Either you like it or you don't, but don't expect anyone on the mod team to let it bother them one way or the other. 

Pretty high and mighty talk for a race who's foot soldiers can be beaten by a machine gun, when they adapt to phasers after three or four shots. Instead of arguing with you, I'll just take the mod, when it's released for diplomacy, and modify it for use by me and my friends.

Fair enough.  This was the response I would have expected in the first place. 

From a purely curious standpoint, how man soldiers with machine guns do you think it would take to overcome the hundreds of thousands of drones on a single cube? 

Considering how epically Borg fail at infantry combat compared to actual soldiers, not as many as you would think.  Especially if Starfleet would do something militaristic and set up a Marine Corps and equip them with the 21st Century invention known as power armor.  Throw some railguns or coilguns in as weapons and you have some lovely Borg-killing troops.  Keep in mind they wouldn't need to kill every drone on the Cube, they could go in as saboteurs and destroy some vital subsystems, leaving the Cube vulnerable to the ships.  Extraction isn't an issue thanks to transporter arrays.

Yeah, Klingon boarding parties would make an unholy mess out of them too with their penchant for melee combat.  Borg really bite the big one as infantry once you go low tech against them.  It's the one weakness they've shown, they're like the old school zombie army, dumb and slow.

Technically speaking this is  completly do-able abitlity wise.  The balancing will be the issue considering the borg dont have shields and that would be the preferable way to balance this abiltiy and for targeting purposes.

jtaylorpcs