niz032

Taking advantage of piracy, how DRM lunacy caused low multiplayer player turnout

Taking advantage of piracy, how DRM lunacy caused low multiplayer player turnout

I read this from stardocks released PDF.

"For Stardock, the more significant shock of Demigod has been the discovery of the low number
of PC gamers who play strategy games online.  Demigod’s single player experience, while decent, did
not get anywhere near the care that the Internet multiplayer experience did.  Despite this, only 23% of
people who have purchased Demigod have ever even attempted to logon to play Internet multiplayer."

In Ye old days (Diablo, etc) game developers USED TO allow more then one person to play off the same account with multiple copies in multiplayer FOR FREE.   The original Warcraft, Warcraft 2 (via kali in the early internet days), doom, Descent, descent2, etc... This is why Doom, Duke 3D, descent, Warcraft, etc, got so popular.  When game developers got stingy and starting doing CD-Authentication then pirate servers started showing up. Instead since demigod is peer 2 peer, allowing pirates to play loses you nothing (didn't pay anyway) but gives a net gain for the game community as a whole.  I think game developers by using cd key auth is one of the main reasons why GPG/stardock is seeing these crap #'s.  FPS games and MMO's can get away with being anal retentive with CD keys.  FPS games because everyone plays them, and MMO's because it's pay to play with online security/auth billing.

For a game like demigod IMHO, you should be doing the OPPOSITE of what everyone in the industry is doing and take us back to the sane times pre 1997/98 where people could play "pirated" versions with one another because they wanted to use one copy, mirror it and play with their friends. I remember doing this for LAN's back in the day with Doom 2, descent and duke nukem 3D for wild times.  IMHO with internet online, I think CD-key auth and the false pirate witchhunts are in fact killing the online success of smaller games.  I think this is another "game developer got greedy" thing where corporate thinking was not the solution, but rather game developers own shortsightedness (gpg/stardock) by not studying the history of why games got popular over Kali (back when it was free and anyone could play).

http://www.kali.net/

The counter-intuitive solution is to enable pirated versions to get updates and to play online with legit players.  IMHO not only will you boost the amount of players online you also perform what I call "the microsoft strategy" - i.e. piracy HELPS because it creates a positive feedback loop (more people on the game, faster the amount of games can be made, less people have to wait before getting a game).

Lets also face it, the reason DOS and windows of microsoft became such a powerhouse was because everyone used them and they became widely known much of it because of piracy.  I think companies need to start facing reality, that they've been doing this to themselves and that there was a lot of multiplayer legit and pirate action on those previously mentioned games (duke, doom, warcraft, descent, etc)

31,161 views 55 replies
Reply #26 Top

Now hold on here.  Are you changing your argument now?  You never mentioned that before, in fact, you said the exact opposite.

"The game is ALREADY PIRATED and ALREADY PLAYED multiplayer over programs that enable pirates to play it, don't believe it ask brad himself.  I'm telling you that your argument is irrational - i.e. the pirates are already playing the game for free over other game services.  And according to stardocks stats, multiplayer users are a small minority of demigod purchasers, so 80%+ of their customers buy it for singleplayer only, so the reasoning for not allowing unofficial versions to grow the community of players is mindboggling weak from a rational, evidence based perspective.  Everyone would have more people to play with IMHO, and that is good customer service to those who paid but have to wait too long to get a game going."

Contrast that with your paragraph in your first post stating

"For a game like demigod IMHO, you should be doing the OPPOSITE of what everyone in the industry is doing and take us back to the sane times pre 1997/98 where people could play "pirated" versions with one another because they wanted to use one copy, mirror it and play with their friends." Which implies online play is indeed not allowed or possible.

Again, regardless of whatever your argument is, there is still no valid position for allowing pirated versions of the game online.  It doesnt matter that only 23% TRIED to play online,  it only matters that those 23% represent 23% of their entire possible market and profits, and to remove the need and possibility to tap that market would result in a much lower overhead for the company.  If the game could be easily pirated for online play, there would be no incentive to go out and actually purchase the game.  This would result in a much larger user base for sure, yet this userbase would not be filled with users the company cares about.

Now, about your conception of what customer service is:  There is no such thing as customer service in the form of ensuring a large player base.  I dont know what you could even call that, but I know that no companies actually work towards this goal if it is based upon only adding free users which give nothing back to the company.  I would also like to note that this game has relatively short waiting times to join a game.  Sure there arent many people on at a time, but because of the rather narrow scope of the game there is not a big section of games to choose from so the chances are if there are three games open, at least one will be centered around what you want to play.  I know successful games which have longer (up to 10 minute wait times between games) wait times, and those games only last 15 minutes at the longest.

The simple truth is that the majority of players are willing to wait extended periods of time between playing in order to enjoy a game they are playing.  There is no need to let everyone play for free just to keep a tiny audience happy, when you can have a small semi-happy audience in the same situation.

Hopefully Ive made myself clear here, but it is new years and Ive been out.. its 4 am. Peace. (I spent much more than I paid for this game tonight, in reference to you calling the company greedy for charging $40 for this product, which was another argument I was making two posts ago)

Reply #27 Top

Contrast that with your paragraph in your first post stating

You're quoting my argument out of context, all my other posts say the same thing - notice in the OP I said :

The counter-intuitive solution is to enable pirated versions to get updates and to play online with legit players.  IMHO not only will you boost the amount of players online you also perform what I call "the microsoft strategy" - i.e. piracy HELPS because it creates a positive feedback loop (more people on the game, faster the amount of games can be made, less people have to wait before getting a game).

That has been the argument all the way through, the point is the pirates are already playing the game anyway (you're not preventing them from enjoying the game) so why not just let them use the lobby so legit paying customers don't have to wait so damn long?  I don't know about you but I really hate waiting so long to get a game going, and to write off your customers because they are a "minority" of users is bad busines IMHO, says "even though you bought our game and supported us, f_ck you!"

It took me over 10 minutes to get a game going last night and this is bad all around.

Reply #28 Top

Alright.  Pirates are playing the game.  So you are saying since the game is already pirated, just let the people who play through other means log into impulse and get access to updates and play with the paying crowd.  Im going to repeat a lot of what Ive already said, but Ill word it differently this time and put it in a pretty numbered list for you.

The positive effects of this:

1. larger player base, which means less waiting time for people who paid.

2. A potential for higher future profits, players may play the game for free and like it a lot, and be more likely to buy future games.

The negatives:

1. The larger player base is not supporting the company.  They just downloaded the game for free.  Chances are many players who might have paid have now just downloaded it.

2. Less people will purchase the game.  I mean, it is free right? Just download and crack it. see above

3. Higher maintenance costs to run the game and affiliated websites. Higher traffic means higher server costs.

So, comparing the positives and negatives we get this.  It will create a bigger userbase, which will keep the people who already bought the game happier.  This targetted audience intended to be made happier shrinks, meaning that through the means they intended to keep people happy, they have cut off a portion of their income.  Not only have they cut off part of their income, they have done so at the same time as incurring higher costs to run the game.  All of this is to be risked on the limited potential of future profits for the company.  The problem, however, is that in order to actually obtain these potential profits means they will need to enforce the DRM again and not allow pirated versions to play through official servers.  If people can get something for free, they dont pay unless they have spare money.  You see, we are back at step one again, with a DRM enabled and no pirated versions.  And I can guarantee you if a company began with "freeware" and switched to adding a DRM on their next updates, people like you would be calling them greedy again.

Why go through all that hassle when you can have a guaranteed profit NOW, with the accompanying likely situation that if your game is produced well enough (like demigod is, arguably) you will also be likely to transfer customers to future games regardless of issues about "long" wait times.

There are certain things that you need to keep in mind when you think about a topic like this.  You can not take the perspective of a lowly player.  You must take the perspective of the company producing the game.  Making a game is purely about profits, and I cant see a valid argument for allowing pirated versions online.  Sure pirated versions can get online now, but there is no official way for them to do so.  Their online play is greatly limited.

 

Now, you say waiting over 10 minutes is bad all around, I dont understand that.  How does "bad for me" translate to "bad all around?"  I have only played about 30 games online, but I have never had to wait an amount of time I considered too long before.  No game is perfect, and there is no point trying to force a game to be perfect for everyone.  But this little comment is irrelevent anyway, it is too much of a personal opinion and not objective.

 

 

Reply #29 Top

make the game cheap and good and everyone will buy it even the most hardcore pirates... Everyone on the planet will buy Diablo 3.....

Reply #30 Top

No...The reason Demigod has a low number account is because:
A) Its similar to DotA so you would expect a large amount of people from DotA to come over. However, it was so different from it hardly any of them liked it and so there was no migration from the "Moba" genre to Demigod which usually happens with other games.

B) This games really, really felt like it wasnt made for online play. I mean - no chat lobby? (Im sorry I dont count a cheap overlay that hardly anyone uses as a real "chat lobby"), Poor Connectivity? (Its fine now but for the first 3 months it sucked the ass), Laggy games? (im sorry but lag-free games on Demigod are RARE. Say what you want about the reasons but the fact is no other games lag like this ingame. And its made even worst that when one player lags, EVERYONE experiences it. In other games this doesnt happen). No clan system? Broken/bad friends system? No groups problem? A.I in matchmaking mode....wow :|

Gameplay is awesome though :) everything else caused it to fail.

 

 

Reply #31 Top

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Reply #32 Top

@DalZK

From Joystick.com

"Demigod appears to have been a pirates' cove at launch, as Stardock CEO Brad Wardell explained on his blog a couple days ago: Out of the 120,000 connections on launch day, only 18,000 were legitimate customers (that's not sales, merely "concurrent users"). Obviously, this situation put quite a strain on the servers. He explained that Stardock stress tested for 50,000 players at peak times and wasn't expecting to hit those numbers for weeks.


A letter from Stardock this morning notes that "most" launch day issues were resolved yesterday afternoon. A "doppleganger" of the network was created, along with an update for legitimate players, which now directs them to the clean servers. It's a pretty nasty situation for Stardock, which has actually put faith in gamers by not placing copy protection on its games. "

 

That's 80,000 more players, that's SIGNIFICANT IMHO, imagine if stardock accepted these people playing the game from laucnh day where the community might be.

The point is we all know demigod had a troubled development and was released with a dearth of content and serious bugs, that is what really killed demigod (GPG) stardock was late to the party (and I feel kinda bad for them) since they are getting associated with GPG but GPG is the one who released an unfinished game.   Finally not enough funds to complete the game and the bone-headed multiplayer only idea with a dearth of single player content for others.  

Lots of lessons are being learned right now and I think brad is one of the few reasonable people on the game development side of things, he's not perfect but at least he's listening and that is important, we all tend to get self righteous and I think we need to just accept the real world and real people have legitimate arguments despite that the lack of  online success is mostly on the the developers and their attitude since the power is in their hands, not in the average gamers hands.  The truth is game dev's tend to be over-ambitious and over-estimate their ability to deliver.

If there is one lesson I have learned in my life, you have to go above and beyond others and not expect any reward and sometimes go against the common wisdom or morality do what is best for your customers, become more laid back and take risks everyone is afraid of taking. If that means giving 110% and in gaming, if that means allowing pirates to play with legit customers, so be it. If you want to have your products be head and shoulders better then others, even if you have to suck it up in long hours.

"People are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them. " -- epictetus 

Our views, our self rigthteousness and air that we are right often blind us to new avenues of opportunity because we are afraid of embracing the world as it is, pirates exist but not all pirates are bad people who don't pay for games.  And if most gamers and developers were honest with themselves in their own lives, the would realize they were once those very same people when they were younger if they are any kind of serious gamer at all.

I discovered civilization 1 through it being shared around with other people, and I was just so enamored with it I went out and bought Civ 2, Civ 3 and Civ4 because I knew this game was great and I wanted to support more games like it in the future.  The idea that piracy is a one way street and not something more complex and hard to grasp is naive.

Modern Warfare 2 is the most pirated game probably ever, but notice it's also the game who made over a billion dollars.

Reply #33 Top

 

Ummmm, if people were pirating the game how exactly were Stardock going to make and $ out of them later on?

Furthermore, surely post release sales would have been damaged if the full product was widely available for free.

 

The sad fact is that DRM is going to contine increasing because of things like the demigod launch - if people don't like DRM then you shouldn't like the pirates that provide the justification for it..........

 

 

Reply #34 Top

Demigods low sales were due to lack of quality not pirates ram, sorry.  Those who stuck around and supported DG even though it's probably a game that deserves to fail (because lets face it, it has serious issues in serving diverse gaming community beyond the multiplayer core).

A little more time and wisdom is needed, game dev's are an ambitious bunch and development of a game does not always work out as planned, its hard and high risk, you don't blame your customers when your game doesn't sell well, you blame yourself for not knowing 1) your market 2) the limits of what you can do.

I read a lot about the industry and what goes on in it so I am well aware of why games fail, and no games do not need more DRM, the problem's with games today are overambitiousness, team sizes and asset production costs.  These are going to take a while for the industry to get down to a science.

Reply #35 Top

 

Really - I am not sure you can back that up. If 100,000 people took the time time to illegally download / share at launch then had that not been available I reckon that a fair number might have bought the game................

Reply #36 Top

@ramw2

Piracy is equivalent of renting the game, trying it out to see if you like it.  In console land renting games has been since there since the beginning of time, piracy is the equivalent of try before you buy, if lots of people pirate your game it does not mean they like it enough to buy it.  Notice there are other games more pirated but are financially successful, so blaming piracy is idiotic.

Like I said before, the problem is with us as human beings, we need to accept reality as it is and come up with unique perspectives and solutions and downplaying our sensibilities, and should think about the state of the experience of paying customers in the game. You cannot prohibit "Try before you buy" mentality of gamers, you should learn from history, when you try to prohibit a popular behaviour you end up looking like a fool in the end - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition 

Also read this article and you'll begin to understand why man gamers feel burned all the time when they spend money on games, fanning the flames of "try before you buy".

Article -http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Demigod/Demigod-multiplayer-finally-fixed

Quote:

Demigod multiplayer finally fixed?

When a calf is born they don't leap from the womb steady on their feet. They stumble about, fall over, get back up and then do it all over again until they figure out how to walk.

While it's incredibly vain to quote myself, this has been Demigod's story. Many already know of the premature retail release forcing Stardock employees to return to work over Easter weekend to attempt a salvage of the situation. Multiplayer connectivity was plagued by issues with pirates being unfairly blamed by popular purveyors of new media the world 'round.

It turned out there were inherent flaws in the code that facilitated multiplayer connections.  In addition to Custom Games that use the well known RTS lobby system to set up online matches, Demigod also has ranked online multiplayer called PantheonPantheon requires that games be automatically created by a matchmaking system without first connecting to a lobby. There is a similar feature for unranked matches called Skirmish.

The matchmaking system was failing and even hosting normal Custom Games was problematic. Brad Wardell, being the straight shooter that he is, explained that they had licensed a third-party library called RakNet and expected to be able to treat it like you would any other engine such as Unreal or Bink. Unfortunately this backfired as RakNet posed scalability issues when dealing with the number of peer-to-peer connections Demigod required.

Reply #37 Top

 

Piracy is equivalent of renting the game, trying it out to see if you like it. 

 

I think almost every software / music / tv / movie company and government in the world (not to mention the WTO) will disagree with you there.

Reply #38 Top

@ramw2

I could care less about what a bunch of greedy thugs thinks.  We have billionaires and homeless people living side by side, captialism is not a just amoral system, and anyone who thinks so needs his head read, this world is filled with assholes, that is, us, and since too many people are assholes, I could care less what one of the most greedy individiualistic, selfish,  people on the face of the earth think.

It's the people that make the world a good or bad place, not a label or abstraction.

You should go read this before making another comment:

http://baens-universe.com/articles/McCauley_copyright

Reply #39 Top

Stealing someone's hard work is not something I can or will support, and any excuses put forth to justify the theft are still merely excuses.

Reply #40 Top

"Stealing someone's hard work is not something I can or will support, and any excuses put forth to justify the theft are still merely excuses."

Your whole argument is invalid, information cannot be stolen merely copied.  See Rivalrous goods:

In economics, a good is considered either rivalrous (rival) or nonrival. Rival goods are goods whose consumption by one consumer prevents simultaneous consumption by other consumers. Most goods, both durable and nondurable, are rival goods. A hammer is a durable rival good. One person's use of the hammer presents a significant barrier to others who desire to use that hammer at the same time. However, the first user does not "use up" the hammer, meaning that some rival goods can still be shared through time. An apple is a nondurable rival good: once an apple is eaten, it is "used up" and can no longer able to be eaten by others. Non-tangible goods can also be rivalrous. Examples include the ownership of radio spectrumsand domain names. In more general terms, almost all private goods are rivalrous.

So remember its not stealing it's sharing, if it wasn't the internet people would be copying discs like they used to do.  Developers are not deprived of their software work when someone makes a copy and tries it out, no one is deprived of anything.  In fact early shareware games success were predicated on mass piracy (doom, duke 3d, etc).  A copy does not equal a lost sale.  If matter and energy could be copied just as easily, whole industries would go bust over-night and you would be the one complaining about those evil car-copying "thiefs". See Prohibition : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition

If a popular behaviour is popular with the public it is no longer legitimately "illegal" just like alcohol, you're just in denial just like the prohbitionists were.

Reply #41 Top

You should go read this before making another comment:

http://baens-universe.com/articles/McCauley_copyright

 

Read it,  a few points:

1) McCauley disagrees with you: he says on numerous occasions in the speech that he accepts the need for copyright. He is arguing against extending literary copyright significantly beyond the death of the author. There is nothing in it to justify any of your arguments. Not only that, but several times he states that he is in favour of copyright itself, just against the length of time it was being extented.

e.g. 1

"For the existing law gives an author copyright during his natural life; nor do I propose to invade that privilege, which I should, on the contrary, be prepared to defend strenuously against any assailant. The only point in issue between us is, how long after an author's death the State shall recognise a copyright in his representatives and assigns"

e.g. 2

"We have, then, only one resource left. We must betake ourselves to copyright, be the inconveniences of copyright what they may."

He then goes on listing the advantages and disadvantages of copyright....

e.g. 3

"The principle of copyright is this. It is a tax on readers for the purpose of giving a bounty to writers. The tax is an exceedingly bad one; it is a tax on one of the most innocent and most salutary of human pleasures; and never let us forget, that a tax on innocent pleasures is a premium on vicious pleasures. I admit, however, the necessity of giving a bounty to genius and learning. In order to give such a bounty, I willingly submit even to this severe and burdensome tax."

So not sure what you were trying to point out......

With your post anbove regarding rival and non-rival goods...The reason why we have copyrights is because this theory does not apply to intellectual property (especially when that property is the result of significant expenditure).

You keep saying that pirates are just "renting" copyrighted material. I seriously doubt this - I don't know anyone who goes out and buys something that they already have for free. It is simply illogical. Maybe a few (yourelf?) do. The vast majority do not (otherwise the music industry would be in a boom rather than a decade long recession). I believe you also talk about piracy helping microsoft - go talk to them about that, I think you will find they strongly disagree.

No one is saying that copyright laws are pefect or that in the new digital age some industries are going to have to lower prices etc. But I think your views are just a bit misugided.

 

Reply #42 Top

I first want to note that I do not support PC gaming piracy, however i do not think that the reason PC games are not as popular as console games is because of DRM or piracy.  One reason for this discrepency is that even though there are many more PCs than consoles, only a small percentage of them are acually capable of playing PC games.  Far many years companies were creating games with the best graphics technology that they could, and they relied on people upgrading thier hardware often.  Although this mentality is changing now, it was too little too late.  The other main reason is advantage of having only one hardware configuration to program for as a opposed to many.  As a result of this console game just work, were with pc games many times there are issues relating to incompatability with different hardware.  Not to mention the fact that companies who make stratagy games insist on using P2P multiplay instead of client-server.  This is dispite the fact that lag and NAT connection issues are rampent on any P2P game.  I know that it is harder to cheat on a P2P game and it requires less servers, but what good is that if people do not play your game online because they do not know what port forwarding means.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting niz032, reply 40
Your whole argument is invalid, information cannot be stolen merely copied.

Hiding behind trite definitions is pointless and is often used to justify theft of intellectual property, such as code, by those who partake in the practice. There are many better arguments which can be put forward, none of which are valid. If someone (including a group of people) chose to sell something they create and you acquire it by a particular means to avoid payment of whatever they've created without their consent, you've stolen from them. Honestly, did you even read what you wrote and copied wholesale before clicking post?

Quoting niz032, reply 40
If a popular behaviour is popular with the public it is no longer legitimately "illegal" just like alcohol, you're just in denial just like the prohbitionists were.

A typical phrase used by a software pirate - and this view is a denotion of an Anarchist. Anarchists are usually the people so protected or sheltered by the Blanket of Law that civilised society has created that they cease to see said blanket and thus question the need for the Laws that provide them said protection. Tell me, if murder became a popular behaviour would you consider it perfectly acceptable to murder anyone for no reason at all? If you answer no or some variation there of, you're justification falls apart.

Theft is theft. Dress it up, change the words, call it what you will; stealing someone elses hard work when they depend on the proceeds for a living is wrong and I will not support it. If they released it free, there would be no discussion. What to change things? Ok, go spend everything, every cent, you have into making a large scale, AAA quality game. I mean something like Oblivion, or Elemental. Spend years dreaming it up, making it, polishing it. Pay others to help you make it great, the kind of game people want to pay for. Then release it. Free. Come back when you have, because then your arm-chair discussion of the meaning of theft of someone elses blood, sweat and tears will have some justificaton. Until then, you're just another moron stealing from someone else because you're too cheap pay for it and because you can.

Reply #44 Top

"So not sure what you were trying to point out......"

McCauley:

 "I am so sensible, Sir, of the kindness with which the House has listened to me, that I will not detain you longer. I will only say this, that if the measure before us should pass, and should produce one-tenth part of the evil which it is calculated to produce, and which I fully expect it to produce, there will soon be a remedy, though of a very objectionable kind. Just as the absurd acts which prohibited the sale of game were virtually repealed by the poacher, just as many absurd revenue acts have been virtually repealed by the smuggler, so will this law be virtually repealed by piratical booksellers. At present the holder of copyright has the public feeling on his side. Those who invade copyright are regarded as knaves who take the bread out of the mouths of deserving men. Everybody is well pleased to see them restrained by the law, and compelled to refund their ill-gotten gains. No tradesman of good repute will have anything to do with such disgraceful transactions. Pass this law: and that feeling is at an end. Men very different from the present race of piratical booksellers will soon infringe this intolerable monopoly. Great masses of capital will be constantly employed in the violation of the law. Every art will be employed to evade legal pursuit; and the whole nation will be in the plot. On which side indeed should the public sympathy be when the question is whether some book as popular as Robinson Crusoe, or the Pilgrim's Progress, shall be in every cottage, or whether it shall be confined to the libraries of the rich for the advantage of the great-grandson of a bookseller who, a hundred years before, drove a hard bargain for the copyright with the author when in great distress? Remember too that, when once it ceases to be considered as wrong and discreditable to invade literary property, no person can say where the invasion will stop. The public seldom makes nice distinctions. The wholesome copyright which now exists will share in the disgrace and danger of the new copyright which you are about to create. And you will find that, in attempting to impose unreasonable restraints on the reprinting of the works of the dead, you have, to a great extent, annulled those restraints which now prevent men from pillaging and defrauding the living. If I saw, Sir, any probability that this bill could be so amended in the Committee that my objections might be removed, I would not divide the House in this stage. But I am so fully convinced that no alteration which would not seem insupportable to my honorable and learned friend, could render his measure supportable to me, that I must move, though with regret, that this bill be read a second time this day six months."

 

Notice that the entire world is against these copyright and propertarian monopolies, for instance gamers never OWN their games, the can't get the source code, fix them, modify them, etc, etc.  The can't create fan created derivatives http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/

All because of copyright monopoly, if GPG is unwilling to fix demigod there would be other people in the community willing to do so but they are barred from doing so because of stupid ass laws like copyright and the corporate serfdom model of software ownership, that is - license, never own

 

Reply #45 Top

Why do you guys waste time talking about whether piracy is right or wrong?...

Times have changed.. people will pirate games is something which you have to accept as a fact of life. If this is the case.. than it is up to the gaming company to come up with the right kind of product and revenue model to make sure that they make money. Companies and people who don't see this and refuse to change or adapt will simply be swept away by time.

Looking around there are games like Warcraft/DOTA (Blizzard), League of Legends, Demigod and the upcoming Heroes of Newerth which have games belonging to this similar genre. DOTA is free (well.. you pay for Warcraft and DOTA is simply just one map out of the thousands...), Demigod tries to make it big.. but failed and newer games like LoL and HoN learn from Stardock's mistakes - with LoL you play the game for FREE. You pay for unlocking more heroes and buying skins/power ups etc. Whether or not this is the right model, we don't know yet.. but what I know is at least it is doing much better than DG. My avg waiting time for a full 5v5 game is abt 30s.. there is a stable and smart automatic matchmaking system and there are plenty of heroes to choose from to add variety to the game. In terms of depth and replayability it has not reached that of DOTA yet but it is already a better experience than DG (at least too me)... and it is FREE.

If you ask me.. I say Piracy is wrong.. but hey.. I dont care. Face the fact that Stardock/GPG got the receipe wrong for DG and for the remaining supporters/fan base.. it is just too bad. This is a dying game and will be remembered in history as a counter example to the things that developers should avoid doing in the future.

 

Reply #46 Top

Looking around there are games like Warcraft/DOTA (Blizzard), League of Legends, Demigod and the upcoming Heroes of Newerth which have games belonging to this similar genre. DOTA is free (well.. you pay for Warcraft and DOTA is simply just one map out of the thousands...), Demigod tries to make it big.. but failed and newer games like LoL and HoN learn from Stardock's mistakes - with LoL you play the game for FREE. You pay for unlocking more heroes and buying skins/power ups etc. Whether or not this is the right model, we don't know yet.. but what I know is at least it is doing much better than DG. My avg waiting time for a full 5v5 game is abt 30s.. there is a stable and smart automatic matchmaking system and there are plenty of heroes to choose from to add variety to the game. In terms of depth and replayability it has not reached that of DOTA yet but it is already a better experience than DG (at least too me)... and it is FREE

You make a lot of claims without any basis in fact here though.

Demigod, LoL, and HoN were all made to generate a profit.

You assume that LoL and HoN will be more profitable than Demigod.  What is your evidence that this is the case? Do you have any third party references showing it in the top 10 best sellers (like NPD had with Demigod at retail alone for two solid months after release?).

I keep seeing people assume Demigod "failed". Based on what? Because there aren't a lot of people playing online compared to say Dota?  As a gamer, I would love to see a much larger online fan base.  But as a businessman, I am interested in how much the game makes.  Demigod has not been a failure by any measurement.

You seriously need to make the distinction between what you want to be true and what is actually true.

Reply #47 Top

All because of copyright monopoly, if GPG is unwilling to fix demigod there would be other people in the community willing to do so but they are barred from doing so because of stupid ass laws like copyright and the corporate serfdom model of software ownership, that is - license, never own

Is something stopping you from making your own game?

No one is forced to copyright what they make.  

I look forward to your un-copyrighted game.

Reply #48 Top

No one is forced to copyright what they make.

I don't think that is true. According to the Berne convention, the very creation of a work copyrights it.

In some countries, such as Germany, copyright can not even be transferred. Whether one can release ones work to the public domain, and abandon ones copyright is legally somewhat unclear. Which is why free programs generally still have licenses.

So yes, people are forced to copyright what they make. Well, technically at least.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 47

All because of copyright monopoly, if GPG is unwilling to fix demigod there would be other people in the community willing to do so but they are barred from doing so because of stupid ass laws like copyright and the corporate serfdom model of software ownership, that is - license, never own

Is something stopping you from making your own game?

No one is forced to copyright what they make.  

I look forward to your un-copyrighted game.

Not to resurrect a dead thread but... I'd been busy and have been away for a while and thought I should respond.

It's not copyright I disagree inherently, it's the lack of co-ownership of the commons that the public invests in these properties but gets _no say_ or ownership stake in stuff _they buy_.   So you have problems with abandonware and unsupported games that COULD still be working and updated but are forced to be junked by stupid laws because companies want total control.  They are just as bad as pirates in this regard, by taking away their customers right to own, repair, and have usable product.

Right now games/movies are vehicles to for people to pay you guys but they don't get anything in return for it, it's just money down a black hole.  If you tried to pull the shit that you guys do in the game industry in the car industry they'd sue you into the ground.

It's the abuse of copyright by not just the game industry but the entertainment and other related industries in general, do you really think shutting down a fan remake of Chrono trigger is a cool thing for anybody to be doing to their fans who **invested** in their games?  I mean it is just *insane*.    Your customers invest in your products, ultimately pay your bills and determine your success but they are treated like garbage and disposable sources of revenue and not customers.

How would things like Quake, Descent and Freespace 2's open source be possible in a modern environment?  Gamers deserve to own their games and the only reason liscensing model took off was because the public could not defend itself against the extortionists. This is why I posted the quote from McCauley, since the whole concept of monopoly copyright and intellectual property is problematic to begin with.

You have to understand the public is being abused by private industry here and this has been going on for too long.  I can still play Freespace 2 outside of online spying and DRM software with other people if I want to.  The game has been updated and fixed to work on modern systems without having to _pay twice or more_ that the current industry loves to revel in, getting people to buy the same stuf over andover again, yet with a license it should be damn near free, see the hypocrisy yet?

Today I can still play old games apart from the internet, being watched and datamined without my privacy being invaded. Can the same thing be said in 10 or 20 years from now with how things are going in the industry?

Reply #50 Top

Right now games/movies are vehicles to for people to pay you guys but they don't get anything in return for it...

If that were true, then nobody would pay for them.

Getting X hours of entertainment on-demand is obviously worth that money to enough people to keep this inudustry alive.  I purchased a copy of Demigod and I can play Demigod any time I damn well please for at least the next few years if not for the rest of my life.  That was worth $40 to me.  If it isn't to you, then you're welcome to find another way to spend your hard-earned cash. 

Gamers deserve to own their games...

You know, it's easy to make these sorts of bold statements about other peoples' work but I honestly don't see where you're drawing this sense of entitlement from. 

Gamers 'deserve' the terms that they agree to when they purchase a copy of the game.  If you don't like the terms (which are relatively universal in my experience), then you have every right to not spend the money and pass on the game.  I don't know what sort of horrible dictatorship that some people are living under where they're forced to be 'abused' by private industry (as least as far as luxury goods like video games are concerned) but this certainly isn't the case anywhere that I've lived.