Simplest Demigod Balance Tweaks

3 hours of work for GPG, months of enjoyment for players

The following small tweaks would go a long way to open up the state of play across the board. 

Some of these changes are more complex, of course, but I tried hard to keep it to the numbers so it would be an afternoon's work for GPG or a couple of days for a modder. 

I found some of this stuff in other people's posts, so all credit to them:

Gameplay:

1.  Nerf BotF to 600 HP and 4 hps
2.  All values on the Assassin stats skill line increased 20%
3.  All values on the General morale skill line increased 10%
4.  Decrease sigil active time 25%
5.  Idol Minotaur health increased scaling 15%
6.  Idol Priest heal cooldown increased 4 seconds

DGs

1.  QoT's Spike Wave functions as an AoE interrupt along path of wave
2.  QoT's Bramble Shield lowers mana cost at level 4 a la Rook's PoT
3.  DA and QoT baseline health increased scaling 10% 
4.  DA's mana regen increased 15%
5.  DA baseline autoattack damage increased scaling 10%
6.  DA's Warp Area can hit a single target up to three times when no other targets available
7.  Reg's Mark of the Betrayer interrupts enemy abilities when it is cast
8.  TB's form switch animation from ice to fire accelerated to 0.2
9.  Sedna's Yeti baseline speed increased 15%
10.  Range on all levels of Erb's Bat Swarm decreased by 15%
11.  Erb's minion baseline health decreased scaling 10%
12.  Rook speed increased 0.1
13.  UB speed decreased 0.1
14.  Occulus Blast Off ability functions as range 5 AoE interrupt at point of impact
15.  Stun/Interrupt immunity on Oak's Shield available starting at skill level 4

On the balance stuff you can see my biases here.  Since June or so the high-level metagame has revolved around healthstacking + monks + sigils + demigods who have interrupts and stuns.  Every DG who doesn't fit into the above formula needs to be played at a much higher level to compete, regardless of their other abilities.  Something's gotta give.

Gameplay Rationale -

HP stacking is nerfed a bit with BotF and Sigil changes .  Without revamping the idol priest mechanic completely I thought the best way to mitigate the advantage they present would be to increase the cooldown between heals, which will make burst damage more effective.  Stats and morale become more viable as build lines.  Idol minotaurs become more effective as tanks.

DG rationale -

Reg, QoT, and Occ get interrupts.  QoT gets a bit more health and a big mana bonus to lategame shield.  Erb has a slightly lower escape window.  UB has a slightly lower speed advantage.  Yetis might still be useless, but at least they move faster.  TB gets a faster form switch, which makes dancing less frustrating.  DA gets some buffs, which he needs to stay competitive.  Rook and Occ get a bit of speed, which makes the curve shallower for new or intermediate players.  Oak needs to invest a bit more and a bit later to get his invincible portal lock on. 

What I'm going for is an across-the-board shift in balance away from straight HP stacked teams of UB+Erb+Random and toward a more diverse set of playstyles and strategies.  The secondary objective is to make this balance change as easy to absorb for the developers as possible. 

With that in mind, if someone wanted to make an elegant mod which incorporated all of these balance changes, or at least the complex ones like adding an interrupt to Spike Wave, that would be truly awesome, and it would make any integration into the official build that much faster.  

If you have any thoughts on this stuff please feel free, but KISS - keep it simple, stupid - changing the numbers slightly is easy to implement and balance, completely rebuilding and rebalancing a given ability or mechanic is hard

Thanks for reading
Kestrel

19,550 views 49 replies
Reply #1 Top

I like a lot of these changes, I just wanna add UB spit changed to half range.

Reply #2 Top

Spit to half range? No. This makes it a melee ability. If you want it to be so, make it melee but don't give it 5 range.

 

To be honest I think a lot of these changes are good but a good lot are also not powerfull enough to chance anything. 0.1 speed decrease? Seriously? 

Reply #3 Top

Either give it half the range or make it take at least .5 to cast. Those are the only changes I would be happy with for Spit.

Reply #4 Top

Jesus Christ, don't buff Morale. That skill line is an abomination that has no place in this game. :/

The changes I do like from this list:

4.  Decrease sigil active time 25%

1.  QoT's Spike Wave functions as an AoE interrupt along path of wave
2.  QoT's Bramble Shield lowers mana cost at level 4 a la Rook's PoT
3.  DA and QoT baseline health increased scaling 10% 

7.  Reg's Mark of the Betrayer interrupts enemy abilities when it is cast
8.  TB's form switch animation from ice to fire accelerated to 0.2

 

No nerfs, all reasonable buffs, and no one gets driven away because their favorite DG isn't any less fun.

 

Also do minions even have their own speed? Are you sure they don't just move at the summoning DG's speed?

Reply #5 Top

1.  Completely trashed, so please ignore puinctuations, etc..  Happy New Years woo!

2.  Reduciung spit range is a bad idea unless you never play ub...teseer as tb i get it, but iverall balance i thin k ub spit is fin3. 

3.  Lifekatana say high to dafna and jeroen they are also dutch, and trying to be conservative with changes.  Dafna edits dutch magazine forget title I think Marie claire.  If 0.1 isn;t enough then tweak further, but it is a start and we can see over course of many games which is poiunt.  All in all idea is slow change easy change is better fdir develoopers

4  Obsc what specifically you disagree with other changes?  Interrrupts fpr tjps who dont' have them is most important but all in all I think everyone will be ok.   And prettty sure minions are on own speed, speed yetis owned before release, at least mcmjon's did...guess worth checking

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Teseer, reply 3
Either give it half the range or make it take at least .5 to cast. Those are the only changes I would be happy with for Spit.

Spit should be like Rook's Boulder Roll and QoT's Spike Wave: Dodgeable. Who heard of heat seaking spit?

I'm fine with the range and damage, but I think it would be much more balanced if it actually required aiming and thinking about range.

Reply #7 Top

Spit should be dodgeable - got my vote 

I'm surprised you proposed no nerf to bite? It's the strongest ability in the game given to the character with the highest stats, multiple escape options, permanent invincibility (that also removes debuffs and drains life) , and free minions.

Reply #8 Top

They just need a garlic trinket. When worn, Erebus can't come near you.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 4
Jesus Christ, don't buff Morale. That skill line is an abomination that has no place in this game. :/

The changes I do like from this list:

4.  Decrease sigil active time 25%

1.  QoT's Spike Wave functions as an AoE interrupt along path of wave
2.  QoT's Bramble Shield lowers mana cost at level 4 a la Rook's PoT
3.  DA and QoT baseline health increased scaling 10% 

7.  Reg's Mark of the Betrayer interrupts enemy abilities when it is cast
8.  TB's form switch animation from ice to fire accelerated to 0.2

 

No nerfs, all reasonable buffs, and no one gets driven away because their favorite DG isn't any less fun.

I agree with this. Demigod is very balanced as it already is (even though many call Erebus extremely overpowered which I don't understand the slightest). The problem are that there are some weaker demigods who needs to be buffed up a bit.

 

Reply #10 Top

Solving Balance Problems: Easy Mode

Hmm... there are 6 weak characters, and 3 good characters ... hey! let's nerf the good characters!

 

Solving Balance Problems: Hard Mode

Hmm... there are 6 weak characters, and 3 good characters ... hey! let's buff all 6 of them each the amount needed to equalize them with the top 3!

Reply #12 Top

Those 3 good Demigod's you are talking about are some of the most popular ones aswell, please bear that in mind. Also I wouldn't entirely agree that only UB, Oak and Erebus is the good characters. I would also like to include Sedna and Rook among them.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Esuzu, reply 12
Those 3 good Demigod's you are talking about are some of the most popular ones aswell, please bear that in mind. Also I wouldn't entirely agree that only UB, Oak and Erebus is the good characters. I would also like to include Sedna and Rook among them.

They are popular because they are good. Except for UB, he's just cool.

The "popular" demigods are just the best ones. Buff QoT to awesome levels, and I bet she will be the most popular demigod in less than a jiffi.

I say there is no danger in nerfing a Demigod, as long as it doesn't render an ability useless, just weakened.

Imo, the damage for bite would be fine... If it didn't have speed reduction added. Wtf is up with that?
Mist should remove debuffs... but only at level 3. You should have to invest in it for all the advantages. Shield requires this, why not mist?

Reply #14 Top

UB Oak and Erebus are all strong for sure but a lot of their popularity may also stem from being pretty easy to play.

Reply #15 Top

Lord Erebus, Oak, and the Unclean Beast are too powerful. Not just in relation to the other demigods mind you. If you buffed the other six demigods to equal power with the golden trio, you would end up with quick confusing skill mashing battles where everyone would die in three seconds and think to themselves omgwtfbbq. You can't have everyone dealing incredible damage, using interrupts, stuns, and nukes. The gameplay would get too complex, it would lose its strategic elements. No demigod should have a burst skill, debuffs, an invincibility skill, an interrupt, and a stun. Each demigod should have no more than three of these.

Erebus: 5

Oak: 5

Unclean Beast: 4

Sedna: 4

The Rook: 4

Torchbearer: 3.5

Demon Assassin: 3 (I think)

Regulus: 2

Queen of Thorns: 1.5

 

Reply #16 Top

Lord Erebus, Oak, and the Unclean Beast are too powerful. Not just in relation to the other demigods mind you. If you buffed the other six demigods to equal power with the golden trio, you would end up with quick confusing skill mashing battles where everyone would die in three seconds and think to themselves omgwtfbbq. You can't have everyone dealing incredible damage, using interrupts, stuns, and nukes. The gameplay would get too complex, it would lose its strategic elements. No demigod should have a burst skill, debuffs, an invincibility skill, an interrupt, and a stun. Each demigod should have no more than three of these.

I tryed to make a ballance mod for something like this (a little bit less DOTA/others though), but no one who cares is interested in a mod this complex. A simple mod that brings things closer but does not end up ballancing is needed before any major support for something like is supported by any large part of the commnity.

Ke5trel's changes abouve are still the best i have seen for a simple mod though will at least decrease the skill gap required to make the bad demigods viable. I still dont get nurfing oak without noticable nurfs to UB/Erebus why does everone think this will make the game better, 6 seconds when you can be stuned and snared is not that good, you cant chase or run with it. The nurfs to UB/LE are just percentage nurfs the skills are still good/useful but oak build will not be able to extend like they currently can till at least level 10 or 11.

Unless you lower erebus conversion chance i dont think -10% base health will mean much to nightwalkers. They are just too easy to replace.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 10
Solving Balance Problems: Easy Mode

Hmm... there are 6 weak characters, and 3 good characters ... hey! let's nerf the good characters!

 

Solving Balance Problems: Hard Mode

Hmm... there are 6 weak characters, and 3 good characters ... hey! let's buff all 6 of them each the amount needed to equalize them with the top 3!

Nerfing the good characters doesn't stop uproot, strutural transfer, yetis, higher levels of foul grasp, or beastial wrath(early game) from being useless, nor does it stop spells like bramble shield from not scaling.

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 4
Also do minions even have their own speed? Are you sure they don't just move at the summoning DG's speed?

They move at their summoner's speed.

[quote who="Splitshadow" reply="15" id="2493708" If you buffed the other six demigods to equal power with the golden trio, you would end up with quick confusing skill mashing battles where everyone would die in three seconds and think to themselves omgwtfbbq. You can't have everyone dealing incredible damage, using interrupts, stuns, and nukes. The gameplay would get too complex, it would lose its strategic elements. No demigod should have a burst skill, debuffs, an invincibility skill, an interrupt, and a stun. Each demigod should have no more than three of these.[/quote]

First off, you make it sound as if we want QoT to be able to 1v1 UB. We don't, we want to expand her role as a Demigod centered around building destruction.

Secondly, according to your own words Sedna, Rook, and TB are apparently overpowered. It's not the type of skill that matters, but its attributes in relation to the Demigod and its role in the game.

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 13
Mist should remove debuffs... but only at level 3. You should have to invest in it for all the advantages. Shield requires this, why not mist?

Because you can move and do stuff while shielded.

Quoting Ke5trel, reply 11
oh lord I was drunk

Yeah, lay off the booze man.

Reply #18 Top

First off, you make it sound as if we want QoT to be able to 1v1 UB. We don't, we want to expand her role as a Demigod centered around building destruction.

Secondly, according to your own words Sedna, Rook, and TB are apparently overpowered. It's not the type of skill that matters,but its attributes in relation to the Demigod and its role in the game.

 

Your argument is sound ... all sound.  First things first. That part of my analysis was totally neglecting stats and minions. When you throw in their stats, you get: Erebus > Oak > Unclean Beast > Rook = Sedna > Torch Bearer > Regulus > DA > QoT

 

Should each demigod have a different playstyle? Of course. Should one demigod get good stats and good abilities? Absolutely not.  If you make a super fast tank with great abilities and put him up against an enemy with crappy stats but equally great abilities, of course the super fast tank is going to win.

 

Erebus has the second highest hp to only the rook.

He has average regen, which is offset by monks.

He has above average DPS, which is enhanced by minions.

By the end of the game, he has the second highest armor rating.

 

If you were to give LE some abilities from scratch, you would make them weak to offset his abnormally high stats and minions.

You should give him a short stun, an interrupt, and a medium damage skill, nothing more.

 

To the contrary, a demigod like the torchbearer has below average health, armor, and dps. Therefore, he needs something to enhance dps (which, yes, I know, he has), some high damage skills, and a fairly long stun to make him more survivable.

Right now, the largest problem is that all the generals, except for QoT, have higher stats than the assassins, abilities that are just as good, and minions. Their stats (except QoT) need to be punished a little to offset the benefit of their minions.

 

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 18

Should each demigod have a different playstyle? Of course. Should one demigod get good stats and good abilities? Absolutely not.  If you make a super fast tank with great abilities and put him up against an enemy with crappy stats but equally great abilities, of course the super fast tank is going to win.

So you're saying Demigods should have intentionally useless abilities? And the super fast tank winning 1v1 doesn't make his enemy useless, only that his strong point is not 1v1 combat. The enmy could be a better supporter, a better pusher, or a better creep killer.

 

Erebus has the second highest hp to only the rook.

Which is offset by having some of the lowest starting armor.

He has average regen, which is offset by monks.

Indeed.

He has above average DPS, which is enhanced by minions.

And offset by a low attack rate and melee range.

By the end of the game, he has the second highest armor rating.


 Not until after level 15.

If you were to give LE some abilities from scratch, you would make them weak to offset his abnormally high stats and minions.

You should give him a short stun, an interrupt, and a medium damage skill, nothing more.

Except he doesn't have abnormally high stats.

 

To the contrary, a demigod like the torchbearer has below average health, armor,and dps.

Because he's a ranged character who has an above average number of buffing, debuffing, and damage dealing skills and plays a different role.

Therefore, he needs something to enhance dps (which, yes, I know, he has), some high damage skills, and a fairly long stun to make him more survivable.

And he has all of that....

Right now, the largest problem is that all the generals, except for QoT, have higher stats than the assassins,

No, they don't: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/364517

abilities that are just as good, and minions. Their stats (except QoT) need to be punished a little to offset the benefit of their minions.

And in order to get/upgrade minions they use skills/money/item space that could be used to upgrade themselves. Their abilities are just as good to warrant the use of assassin and hybrid builds, rather than forcing generals to go a full or almost full minion build.

Reply #20 Top

He has above average DPS, which is enhanced by minions.

 

And offset by a low attack rate and melee range.

 

DPS includes attack rate... if he weren't a melee character I would never play against him.

 

Therefore, he needs something to enhance dps (which, yes, I know, he has), some high damage skills, and a fairly long stun to make him more survivable.

 

And he has all of that....

 

Except a fairly long stun, frost nova takes forever to cast and has low stun time, also, I told you I knew hid did to avoid this predictable response.

 

Right now, the largest problem is that all the generals, except for QoT, have higher stats than the assassins,

 

No, they don't: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/364517

 

Who has the lowest dps from base stats? An assassin.

Who has the lowest damage rating? An assassin.

Who has the lowest armor? An assassin.

Who has the lowest regen? An assassin.

Who has the lowests max health? All the assassins but the rook.

Max energy is effectively a tie.

Hey! A general has the lowest energy regen. Oh wait, it's oak, and if he had more he could spam his awesome skills too much.

 

Erebus has the second highest hp to only the rook.

 

Which is offset by having some of the lowest starting armor.

 

Armor is only good for taking out towers and fighting against a pure AA character. Erebus has a personal team of tower busters at his disposal, and he can lower your armor to his level from level 1 with bite.


And in order to get/upgrade minions they use skills/money/item space that could be used to upgrade themselves. Their abilities are just as good to warrant the use of assassin and hybrid builds, rather than forcing generals to go a full or almost full minion build.

 

Oh, so you champion giving specific roles to each demigod, but generals are exempt and should have the freedom to play any role they want.  Seriously, a hybrid LE can do bite, coven, and a level of mist to be essentially a good assassin WITH added minions WITH high speed, health, and dps.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 20
DPS includes attack rate... if he weren't a melee character I would never play against him.

And DPS rate implies that both DG are attacking at the same time, and doesn't take numerous other factor into account.

 

Except a fairly long stun, frost nova takes forever to cast and has low stun time, also, I told you I knew hid did to avoid this predictable response.

How is 10 seconds short? It only does 3 seconds against DG due to the speed debuff. And you said you knew he had dps enhancing abilities, not high damaging abilities. Which he does.

 

Who has the lowest dps from base stats? An assassin.

Who has the lowest damage rating? An assassin.

Who has the lowest armor? An assassin.

Who has the lowest regen? An assassin.

Who has the lowests max health? All the assassins but the rook.

Max energy is effectively a tie.

Hey! A general has the lowest energy regen. Oh wait, it's oak, and if he had more he could spam his awesome skills too much.

The generals you consider overpowered, Erebus and Oak, have the highest stats in.....zero of the catagories. The assassins are built around having high and low stats while the generals are more balanced. Every assassin has the highest stat in at least one category except Regulus. Regulus and TB have low health because they're ranged, UB has relatively low health because he has high armor and can deal insane amounts of damage. And how is energy a tie? Erebus and Oak are near the bottom.

 

Armor is only good for taking out towers and fighting against a pure AA character. Erebus has a personal team of tower busters at his disposal, and he can lower your armor to his level from level 1 with bite.
Which doesn't change him being squishy early game. And if armor isn't important then neither is Erebus having the highest armor stat after level 15.


Oh, so you champion giving specific roles to each demigod, but generals are exempt and should have the freedom to play any role they want.  Seriously, a hybrid LE can do bite, coven, and a level of mist to be essentially a good assassin WITH added minions WITH high speed, health, and dps.

*sigh* Stop quoting me out of context. Each DG was designing with a specific purpose in mind, that doesn't mean builds can be specialized to do one thing better than another. A hybrid or spit UB is better at tower pushing than an ooze UB. And yeah, Erebus can multi task. Big whoop. Go into specifics and we'll debate that.

Reply #22 Top

Let's just ignore everything that has been said and simplify this from a bird's eye view.

FACTS

The generals vs. assassins pantheon is a joke, and every player realizes that the assassins have no chance

Priests give the generals enormous survivability.

It is commonly accepted that a team is not viable without at least one general.

Out of the top three demigods, only one is an assassin.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 22


Out of the top three demigods, only one is an assassin.

And thats only if he's playing with generals who share monks.

Played a game the other day where our Reg and their UB were fighting over a lane 1v1 style.  I was sharing a monk with my teamate but the UB wasn't so lucky so he had to keep bailing and he was getting rousted pretty bad by one of my teamates...

"Run Beast, Run!!!  Fear the overpowered might of Regulus!"

Reply #24 Top

Then throw a few buffs towards the weaker DGs so they can play their roles on a more competitive level. Not sure why this is so hard to understand....

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 22
Let's just ignore everything that has been said and simplify this from a bird's eye view.

FACTS

The generals vs. assassins pantheon is a joke, and every player realizes that the assassins have no chance

I play TB on the General side.

wtfpwnt