Played a game the other night with a pure ice TB along with a Reg, and while it was tough early on, it was funny later on when the other team couldn't move or cast while we whaled on them. 

Got the replay?

I did think of one time where Fire Nova could out-perform RoI.

If grunts are set on High.

people itch when I do that thoug.

Yes.

But I still haven't seen any convincing arguments for all Fire. I can see Ice being Viable, but Fire just does not seem to have enough burst (which I have numbers before) to make up for the HUGE lack in utility. Other then Fire Aura, I don't think the build can truly hold its own. Other then being easy, that is.

Teseer try poisoned dagger,  fireball, fire aura and stats.  no circle of fire.  auto attack build.  

   dont buy any helms and get gloves to start with.   guaruntee you will get plenty of early game gimic kills.   as game goes on u will start to be gimp though so try and end it fast.

Even with form switching, I don't see that doing anything against someone who has the vaguest idea what they are doing.

I can see the poison dagger MAYBE catching someone off guard and getting an early kill (which would be hilarious). TB just isn't set to be an AA character. Trust me, I've tried. I LOVE his AA but it doesn't work out how ya want it to. Plus armor screws you.

Advantages of Fire:

- Shorter Cooldowns on all your abilities (compared to Ice) which means you can do additional "skill cycles" compared to Ice (which can't do very many skill cycles in a dogpile). 

- Much, much more constant DPS (Fire Aura espiecially with Creeps and other demigods, Circle of Fire, Fireball on short cooldown)

- Much less Mana consumption, means you can get by on just one helm, espeicially once you get the level 15 Circle of Fire skill, though you should still get 2 helms to be safe until that happens Then when you start getting Enhanced Attributes your mana requirements drop further and your hp increases by a little bit. Also, sigils (though you shouldn't sigil as TB, really).

This means you can go Blood if you want to. Blood == larger monk heals and more hp. A monk supported Blood Fire TB is one tough sucker to push out of a lane, even if it sounds kinda funny.

- Much more useful team abilities (Fire Aura)

- Easier to play (by far)

Disadvantages:

- Lack an interrupt. This is an issue when it comes to people are locking in your face. Morale of the story -> never let the sons of bitches get a flag. Port on their face.

If they want to teleport home, that's fine, you still get to stand on a flag, level up, destroy towers, whatever. If they are potting in your face, they are standing in your one or two circles of fire and eating half a fireball's cooldown as well as all of your super-creeps while they are doing so. 

- Less true-burst than a hybrid (which is instead spent constantly DPS'ing to make up for it. Also, more skill cycles). 

You forgot to list as a disadvantage how easy it is to interrupt fire TB and how telegraphed his fire moves are.

eg: The fact that oak can shield your fireball off, and then interrupt your nova or RoF means you are about to get your arse handed to you as fire TB.

Teseer  don't forget about TBs auto attack damage bonus from switching forms.      Then add the speed increase the dagger gives and the first thing u buy is gloves.     

at the begining of the game when both teams run into the middle to get the flag and theres an initial fight.   Like 50% of the time, right there I get a kill.  

Not saying its a good build but it definitly playable as a gimic.    If you play it right for sure you will be getting more than 1 early game kill.  

At the time of the initial fight, a pure fire build is exactly the same as a hybrid. There's really no difference that early on. You should still be form dancing to get the extra damage and mana regen. Not taking bots would hurt you in the long run as would not getting rain of ice and deep freeze. 

I still say having an interrupt and not taking is the worst idea imaginable. They can take a potion while fighting you, so they will push you back. It will cost them some, but it gives them total map control

Synn, stop talking like you know all about pro games. 

Will: You may get a kill if you have the +9000 weapon damage from Fire -> Ice fresh and you're fighting a general who overextended and has no escape mechanism (Shield-less Oak, and Blast-Off! less Occ... early early game means level 1). Assassins will typically have enough HP with Banded to survive a few more hits. Even then, you have to time it just as they decided they overextended and are backing up and didn't know you had Poison Dagger to get a kill.

Yes, it will work against good players. But only once. 

If I have experience with them; then I will speak it and because I think something doesn't mean it is true or I am portraying it as some kind of fact. Will can disagree, you or anyone else on here who has had the experience can disagree because they may have had a different experience.

End of discussion.

this is probably true.  and why I probably would avoid doing this in a pro level game as people will simply play more cautiously around poison daggers.

  you will get more than a couple extra hits when the poisoned dagger goes off though.  It works better the more players there are, because then you have a chance to catch more than one more person off guard.   Switch from fighting on one lane then jump into another lane where a fight is already happening and a lot of people wont be worried about a fire TB who isnt front ending a lot of damage. 

RoI has 1 second less of a cooldown then Fire Nova. Deep Freeze is a 15 second to RoF's 10. So...the only advantage is the most inconsistant damage (other then on towers, which I do love the skill for).

I love Inspirational Flame. I really do...but at level 15, you're pretty gimp other then making your team run faster. 1050 FB and 800 Fire Nova is really all you have (as RoF is too situational to add) and 1850 doesn't mean much. Meanwhile, with Fire/Ice, you have 3,425 burst at a longer range.

As for mana, like I mentioned before:

The 'Burst' of the Fire TB is:

Lvl 1-3: 300 (300 mana)
Lvl 4: 535 (380 mana)
Lvl 5-6: 935 (1,155 mana)
Lvl 7-9: 1,250 (1,535 mana)
Lvl 10-14: 1,650 (1,615 mana)
Lvl 15-20: 1,850 (1,915 mana)

This isn't including anything with CoF as I don't feel that counts as burst.

The 'Burst' of my hybrid is:

Lvl 1: 300 (300 mana)
Lvl 2-3: 500 (800 mana)
Lvl 4-6: 935 (1,080 mana)
Lvl 7-9: 1,450 (1,360 mana)
Lvl 10-14: 1,850 (1,640 mana)
Lvl 15-20: 2,150 (1,640 mana)

With Deep Freeze:
Lvl 15-20: 3,425 (3615 mana)

So, the only difference mana usage wise is:
Lvl 1-3 : 450/0
Lvl 4-6 : 600/750
Lvl 7-9 : 700/750
Lvl 10-14 : 800/750
Lvl 16 : 800/1000
Lvl 17-20 : 800/1250

This is between Frost Nova/RoF. If you have RoF, you will want to be using it more then you would Frost Nova.

This doesn't include Deep Freeze, but until level 11, it is only 350 mana.

I would say they are about even mana wise.

If you think 800 HPs is worth the loss of mana from BotS, you're not casting enough.

Agree, except that Fire Aura isn't more useful then Frost Nova and Deep Freeze together.

I tried an AA build a long long while back. BotS and Gaunt of Brute for the +125 weapon dmg at level one. It starts out strong, but pitters out REAL quick. 

 

Fire TB will be able to hold a lane much better than a BotS TB. With BotS you have to accept the fact that a lot of demigods will push you out. Now, you can flip that around pretty easily since BotS will let you push anyone else out given enough time (infinite mana). 

But if I have a fire BotF TB and I'm standing on the HP flag and, say, Erebus comes to kick my ass I'm going to be able to hold it better with the extra 1000 hp (plus 100 larger monk heals) than I would if I were BotS. I understand once you get a helm the hp advantage drops to more like 500.

If you're on the mana side of Cataract, doing a BotF Fire TB is just stupid. I will completely agree. If you're fighting for the HP flag while your Oak is level'ing up on the mana side, doing BotF will help you hold it better. 

This has been my experience as well. It's fun, it's really nice if you're laned against a general. But after first shop, you basically need to sell it to get your 400 gold back because that 400 gold is better put into a different item. 

Frost Nova isn't effective 1v1. You just about lose more time than you gain until you get three points (level 2 you have a .4 second advantage for what that is worth). Many demigods have the means to dispel debuffs (Erebus, Sedna, Oak, Occulus) which hurts your DF combo (assuming you DF them as they are Frozen then they can't dispel the Frost Nova debuff but they can certainly dispel Biting Chill and the Rain of Ice debuff which comes out to -1000 damage or so with level 15 DF). Remember that for all of those but Erebus, they can do that to an ally and all demigods have access to at least 2 debuff removing items that they can incorporate into their builds.  

At level 15 with just BotS (no helm) you have 3600 Mana. Your combo (including DF) costs 3615 (with regen you're fine, I think). This means that if someone comes up to you after just using one Rain of Ice to farm and BotS is on cooldown... you won't be able to execute your combination. If you /do/ get a helm, then you fall behind on the HP curve. (see argument above). 

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Burst damage has advantages and disadvantages. It's great when you can see an enemy reach a magical number and finish them off in with your combination. But both Occulus and TB (without CoF and to a much lesser extent because of Fire->Ice AA buff) have a problem where if you just don't panic when they burst you you can do your skill cycles twice which can be enough to chase them off. 

Remember that your "burst" also takes about 5 seconds to instrument and has two obvious abilities that can be interupted. Not a huge deal, sure, but it's enough for a monk heal which will be ~500 at that point in the game (half your fireball will be healed on impact as they approach and after you blow your load it'll be healing again). Also you blow both of your interrupts, which means if someone were doing crazy stuff they could pot in your face (unlikely, but for the purposes of theory crafting...). 

Sustained DPS and tanking is more effective end-game when everyone is running around with 6k+ hp and quite possibly Orb of Defiance and Giants are smashing everything (more likely just your Giants 'cause you are TB. But don't dimiss Surged giants or Occulus ruining yours in turn). 

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Again, I will stand on the opinion that DF is a fantastic ability when used against weaker players who don't notice the debuff pop-up. It's also great in 3v3 cluster-fucks because you effectively remove one enemy for 5 seconds which is enough to win the engagement.

However, until you invest 5 skill points into it (4.5 if you want to call Fire & Ice half a Fireball ability), it's an ineffective ability damage-wise. 

I'll agree to disagree about a BotF TB.

You gotta get mana itemz, yo. I'll always get Vlem as my 4th item. Extra mana is nice, and while the Battlecrown is cheaper and more mana, I find being able to regen that 200 mana you need for the next RoI/BotS being a HUGE boon. 

In the end, yeah, you swap out for the Battlecrown. 

As for mana costs level 15, you have to understand you don't spam that. Hell, most games don't even get there. 90% of the time it's a novelty to just pop people at the end of a game. Its rediculously fun.

But, the fact that you HAVE that much burst available is what is awesome. If you use the combo, you lose your stun and interrupt. I feel naked when DF is on cooldown. 

Aaaaaand lesse. Frost nova isn't a 1v1 ability. What makes it amazing is the building stun and the slow. The slow is the most important part. You're not stunning (till level 16, with my build) for the stun, your doing it for the interrupt/slow. 

And that's all I got in me for now. I just got intahnets working so I'ma download me some replays and get back in da saddle.