[Functional request] Proportional population growth instead of constant growth

At the moment the population base growth is a fixed 0.1 per turn. This means independent of the current population size or availability of food surplus the population will grow by 0.1 (plus any augmentation by growth modifiers).

You can accelerate your growth by building certain buildings (hospital, etc) and/or researching growth modifying techs. But major growth can be achieved by producing "Birthing Subsidies" on strong production planets.

For argument's sake i will ignore the modifiers (including happiness).

If you only look at the "natural" growth (i.e. not producing "Birthing Subsidies") it is rather strange that a planet with a population of near zero will grow as fast as a planet of 100 billion people. The effective birth rate is in the first case 100% (0.1/0.1) while it is in the second case 0.1% (0.1 / 100).

A far more logical behaviour would be: The population size should be the driving factor for population growth and the availability of food should be the limiting factor for the growth. If there is sufficient food surplus the population growth should be a percentage of the current population size. If the population approaches the food limit the growth should slow down.

Example (for population smaller than food production) with growth percentage of 2.5%:
PopulationNaturalGrowth = 0.025 * CurrentPopulation
GrowthLimiter = 1 - (CurrentPopulation^2 / MaxFood^2)
NewPopulation =  CurrentPopulation + (PopulationNaturalGrowth * GrowthLimiter)

This will give a more realistic growth curve then the fixed growth of 0.1. Underpopulated planets (0 ... 2,5) will grow slower; regular planets (2.5 ... 16) will grow in roughly the same rate as the current implementation; lush planets (16 and greater food) will grow faster, the greater the food surplus the faster the population will grow.

Of course the modifiers should still have a major influence on the actual growth.

The problem with constant growth

The constant growth means that you are not penalised for depleted planets or rewarded for having a food surplus. Any negative influence of population pressure on approval can be compensated by other means. This leads to the valid strategy of "near zero population" colonizing.

A method of fast colonizing the free planets is by using empty cheap colonizers. You can achieve this by (for the Terrans):
1) unloading your initial colonizer on Earth;
2) send it with minimal population to Mars;
3) make Mars the primary sponsor of the shipyard;
4) make Earth the secondary sponsor;
5) start building cheap colonizers. This will deplete Mars and the colonizers will have near zero population, but that does not matter. What matters is that Earth will have maximized production;
6) colonize any planet you can lay your hands on;
7) repeat until there are no more free planets;
8) keep transporting population from a number of small planets to your main production planets until they are stuffed to the gills;

Depending on the distance to the first/nearest habitable planet the break even point (without any changes to the production distribution wheel and leaving social vs military production at 50%) is reached around turn 31. With production tuning it can be even faster.

The problem with proportional growth

Well managed large planets will reach their population limit a lot faster. This means more production, more wealth, more research, net effect: a lot shorter game. So the max growth per turn should be capped.

Overpopulation

While i am on the topic, a nice curve for starvation might be:
MaxDeathRate = 0.75
OverPopulation = CurrentPopulation - MaxFood
StarvationRate =  (CurrentPopulation / MaxFood) - 1
NewPopulation = CurrentPopulation - min (OverPopulation * StarvationRate, CurrentPopulation * MaxDeathRate)

Guys (and Girls): Can i get a Yea or Nay ?

19,019 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

One issue that would concern me is recovery after an invasion. Could take quite a while for such a colony to become productive. That's different from GC2 where you might be able to preserve some improvements OR you intentionally choose to destroy improvements so you have accepted the production hit.

Reply #2 Top

I'm not sure if I like this, the current method is ok considering there are modifiers to growth. I don't think implementing this will be a big deal considering I don't really give a rats ass about this. Especially since I can mod it at will. :3

 

DARCA ;)

Reply #3 Top

Quoting eviator, reply 1

Could take quite a while for such a colony to become productive.

But doesn't that just reflect the importance of colonists?  It makes sense that depopulated worlds would have to rely more on colonists coming to that planet than on domestic population growth...

You basically had to do this in GC2...you'd put people on transports from your core worlds and bring them to your frontline to keep the numbers up if you couldn't defend all your planets with a fleet...

I would love to see nonlinear population growth in GC3...however, I also don't want it to require tedious micromanagement where the player has to load and unload and move transports back and forth...

Perhaps you would have the option on each planet to "encourage colonization"...you could, say, flag your HW to distribute a certain amount of colonists to all other planets (or a list of your choosing, simple check on/off boxes)...it would occur automatically, result in a non-zero change in population, and by moving people to the outer worlds those planets would grow faster...

I believe Pandora: First Contact has nonlinear growth, but I haven't played it so I don't know how well it works out...

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 3


Quoting eviator,

Could take quite a while for such a colony to become productive.



But doesn't that just reflect the importance of colonists?  It makes sense that depopulated worlds would have to rely more on colonists coming to that planet than on domestic population growth...

You basically had to do this in GC2...you'd put people on transports from your core worlds and bring them to your frontline to keep the numbers up if you couldn't defend all your planets with a fleet...

I get your point, but in GC2 population didn't directly impact production. That is the key difference. After an invasion your newly acquired planet could immediately help your empire in meaningful ways if there were some improvements left over, even if you only had 50 million. The same situation will take recovery time in GC3, and even more-so with the OPs idea. The idea of sending a colony ship after every transport ship seems a little silly.

im not flat out opposed to the OP's idea, but I am concerned about the implications of extremely low production for many turns after an invasion.

Reply #5 Top

Exponential pop growth (which is what you get if it's proportional to current pop) is a fine idea.  However, it does interact with Alpha/Beta 1's pop-dependent production.  Stardock already plans to tweak the production pipeline to de-emphasize raw population, so they may also rethink pop growth.

The nigh-empty colonizer rush seems to be a perfectly good gambit.  You seize planets early, as a pure space grab.  As you note, it takes them forever to actually become productive, so they're basically dead weight to your empire for 20-40 turns or until you land more civilians.  The drawback of getting them early is that you need 2 ships to do the job of 1.  Merely being early might not even help you, if the enemy can colonize 12 turns later and still outrace you to finish a Consulate that flips your planet.

Post-invasion, you can also land any nearby transports with troops onto a newly-conquered planet.  All troops disembark and become civilians(!).  In that sense, transports and colonizers are indistinguishable for moving people between your own planets.  So just swarm enemy space with multiple transports (which you may need to do anyways, in case the first k of them lose), and you can top off any captured planets quickly.

Reply #6 Top

What I've learned is to always be richer and have bigger guns so I dont have to deal with consulates and opinions and united planets. All they do is conspire against my regime and try to take my power and wealth. They will get it all right, in the form of a flooded economy and a asteroid to there home world. :)

 

DARCA. ;) 

Reply #7 Top

Gambit paid off: Meet my empire (Turn 170, 3 Godlike enemies). Oh yeah, bucket loads of money. A tech researched every turn, so next turn i can build Titans (Yeah); not that it is really needed anymore because the game is - as good as - won.

Meet my four main production planets. Look mommy, no research facilities.

The main task of most small planets is to "build" population (and a little bit of wealth), which gets transported to the production planets where they can be useful.

Ignore the missing factory upgrade from the build queue. This sometimes happens after a game load, and corrects itself after pushing the "Turn" button.

Internal production planet: Should replace the outreach centers with either food or production buildings like i did on Earth.

Tuning the production to prevent wasting it.

Big Guns needed? How about Quantity and Quality. Conquer an enemy planet every turn.

Oops, sloppy: forgot to tune the production on Earth. wasting 580 production per turn. But it does not matter in this case, because you can only build 1 ship per turn and are limited to researching 1 tech per turn. So whether i waste it on production or on research does not really matter.

 

Reply #8 Top

Those are insane numbers. I have no idea how you to get those kind of production numbers, but now I'm going to try. Do you make good use of star bases, or is all that bonus production just improvements?

Reply #9 Top

See first screen shot in reply #7. I build lots of star bases.

Screenshot from an earlier game. I have had even better ones.

Reply #10 Top

I don't think anyone wants to do the tedious task of moving transports back and forth to move people from one planet to another...this is why I think it would be really good to have a passive option for each planet to send out colonists...

You get the complexity of realistic population growth without the tedious micro-management - in other words, the best of both worlds...

That production is tied to population makes realistic growth even more important...you should NOT be able to colonize a planet (or conquer it) and immediately get solid production from it...realistic population growth balances vertical vs. horizontal expansion/development even further and I think would go to great lengths to prevent the whole "bigger is badder" problem that many strategy games tend to suffer from...

Reply #11 Top

I find it not tedious at all.

I have 4 transporters doing the migration thing. Compare this to the 60 battle ships - most of which are simply stationed on planets to prevent invasion. Another 20 fleets each made up out of 1 overlord and 1 transporter are en route to conquer a planet. Then there are 4 fleets made up of 5 Overlords each doing the actual fighting - if you can call it that at all.

Most of my time i spend on moving damaged battleships out of the attacking fleets sending them to a planet - which might be freshly conquered - and once they arrive there sent the protecting (undamaged) ship to the fleet as replacement. The damaged ship then stays in orbit of said planet.

Most of my ships once they have been damaged - and sent to planet protection duty - will never leave from there or see battle again. They simply do not repair fast enough. So my main source of fleet replenishment are the former transport escort ships.

Reply #13 Top

I'm one of those people who have been leaving their colony ships nearly empty before sending them out to colonize worlds. I've been doing this for a while. I found that sending full colony ships hurt the production of my ship building worlds too much. My population didn't recover fast enough to cover the loss of a full colony ship. True even when I was doing things to boost population growth on those worlds like building hospitals and morale buildings. I found that attempting to increase ship production rate of colony ships was counter productive.

I found that colonizing new worlds is an effective way to boost population growth. If each world had a population growth rate of 0.1 per turn, then colonizing another world would increase the population growth of my empire by 0.1 per turn. It became the motive behind me trying to colonize as many worlds as I could as quickly as I could.

Reply #14 Top

Good idea.

Proportional growth is necessary feature.

Also it would be better to increase precise of increment calculation from 0.1 to 0.01.