Better than nothing. Maybe. No, not really.

from JoeUser Forums

 

We’ve had the Patriot Act (I really don’t like throwing that ‘P’ word around, especially for that) fourteen years. By and large? It’s a real balancing act, which has been abused.

Now, the House has forced the Senate’s hand and hopefully we’ll have a new law which removes the mass data collection the NSA’s been doing. We’ll see.

Now, the House has passed the USA Freedom Act (catchy use of the ‘F’ word) supposedly restraining the NSA’s bulk data collection. Not a word of thanks to Edward Snowden, who revealed the abuse two years ago. Now there’ll be more transparency in the data collection. No doubt they’ll replace it with something else, or have GCHQ, etc. do it for them.

The House passed it 338-88. “Today, we have a rare opportunity to restore a measure of restraint to surveillance programs that have simply gone too far.” - Rep. Conyers.

Something new in Washington: Bipartisanship. To be sure. Why am I worried? When politicians agree, it bodes ill. It usually means that they all agree they have something to hide, which might have been exposed otherwise. I don’t kid myself it’s for the common man. Or is it just for show? After all, the Senate Majority Leader wants to simply hold onto the Patriot Act intact. Maybe the 338-88 vote will force him to realize it just might be the will of the people…not to mention that 2016 is fast approaching.

The bill actually expands data collection from chat apps, video, etc. It also doesn’t limit NSA’s use of search terms and “emergency” (the old ‘ticking bomb’) warrantless search: So, it really doesn’t do much to limit NSA’s mass surveillance and actually enables the worst practices, and allows the government to claim state secrecy, according to Evan Greer (Fight for the Future).

I guarantee the government will try to stretch the boundaries of this bill just as it did with the Patriot Act. I’d bet they have folks working on that even now (Reagan’s “9 most terrifying words” folks).

The Speaker of the House just said (in relation to Libertarians wanting stronger limits), "This is a very delicate issue. I know members would like to offer some amendments, but this is not a place for people to bring out the wrecking ball.”

Wrong. This is EXACTLY the time and place to engage in an honest a full debate. It is never  the time to suppress honest concern over our freedoms. While this reforms the FISA program, it leaves the NSA with immensely powerful tools which they have been shown to misuse.

Section 215 is only that. What about all the rest? That’s where the NSA uses its many ‘tools’, where it expends most of its efforts, and no one’s talking about that. No one’s even saying “thank you” to Edward Snowden for doing something really patriotic: Sacrificing himself for our right to privacy from the surveillance state.

Source:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/a-long-awaited-reform-to-the-usa-patriot-act/393197/

90,823 views 32 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Personally I don't see what all the hype is about. Like I've said before, I have nothing to hide and if all people would think that way they would not have to worry about the NSA or any other government agency collecting data by whatever means necessary towards protecting lives. One single phone call or one single email setting up a terrorist strike being missed by the NSA or whomever could result in the massive loss of life. Cutting off that ability is merely promoting terrorists and allowing them an easy way to terrorize the human race.  :S

Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top

^^^^^  :thumbsup:

Start11 - Customize the Start Menu and Taskbar in Windows 10/11.
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Without going into a long explaination of why, I agree with LightStar. 

In my estimation or opinion the majority of citizens have nothing in their back ground or activities that they are worried about losing privacy over if it is looked at.  Having had a career in the Military and working as a civilian for the DoD the government has available to it more than half of my life's information.  Big deal.  Even if I sat down and went over it more than likely it would be boring.

I can not take time out of my life to be concerned about folks that begin to sweat and their blood pressure goes up when ask "And what did you do today?"

Also, like yourself and the rest that may reply to this thread, this is just my opinion.  I don't ask that you agree with it, just accept that it's mine.  :sun:

Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Oops

 

 

Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Well...if we're gonna go down the "if you have nothing to hide" road...we should start allowing "random...no warrant" searches of people homes...I mean...if you have nothing to hide. ;) For all we know you could be hiding Al Qaeda or a meth lab or a huge porn collection...(you a pervert?)...in your basement...and...since you have nothing to hide...everyone should be good with it. :thumbsup:

 

Seriously people...is everyone in that much of a hurry to give away your right to privacy? Not me...stay the hell out of my life! Is some little comment..."if you have nothing to hide"...all it takes these days to make everyone bend over and give in? If that's the case...none of you deserve the freedom millions gave their lives for. Once you open that door there's no closing it and then the flood gates will open. Random anal searches will be next on the bill...I mean...if you have nothing to hide...bend over.

Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting WebGizmos, reply 5

Well...if we're gonna go down the "if you have nothing to hide" road...we should start allowing "random...no warrant" searches of people homes...I mean...if you have nothing to hide. ;) For all we know you could be hiding Al Qaeda or a meth lab in your basement...and...since you have nothing to hide...everyone should be good with it. :thumbsup:

 

Seriously people...is everyone in that much of a hurry to give away your right to privacy? Not me...stay the hell out of my life! Is some little comment..."if you have nothing to hide"...all it takes these days to make everyone bend over and give in? If that's the case...none of you deserve the freedom millions gave their lives for. Once you open that door there's no closing it and then the flood gates will open. Random anal searches will be next on the bill...I mean...if you have nothing to hide.

That is not what is meant by nothing to hide. You are comparing nothing to hide with privacy and the 2 are different. I have nothing to hide as far as information goes, heck I could not even care less if someone has my banking info because they can't steal what I don't have. Just because I have nothing to hide does not mean I am about to give my privacy away. Try to come take a look in my basement for whatever reason and see how far you get, unless  of course I am put in restraints by bigger men than I. 

Reply #7 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

I couldn't disagree more with Lightstar. The same people who distrust corporations and greedy CEOs are the same people who put undeserved trust into our government "leaders". Do you know the fine print of every law and regulation that has been put in place? Because ample evidence suggests every adult American unknowingly commits crimes every day. If the government were to decide to enforce those laws using their warrantless searches, you could very well find yourself with a fine, perhaps even jail time.

Why did the founders ratify the 4th amendment in the first place? They knew there would come a time when power hungry government leaders would want to perform unwarranted searches to silence their political opponents. Do you think there weren't dangers to the public back then? Of course there were! In Texas an armed off duty police officer just saved a bunch of lives because he had the training and firepower to stop a terrorist from killing a bunch of artists. He didn't need to monitor everyone's cell phones to do it.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

If you want to do so, go ahead, but don't force me to do it.

 

Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting LightStar, reply 1

I have nothing to hide and if all people would think that way they would not have to worry about the NSA or any other government agency collecting data by whatever means necessary towards protecting lives.

Right, Tom. Just like J. Edgar Hoover's files...used to blackmail Congress and Presidents. 

We have the Bill of Rights for damned good reasons, and they have to do with having lived at the whim of a crazy despot. There's no going back to that, and I don't understand how anyone thinks any band of terrorists can take down the idea of America. If we had been true to those ideals, hadn't screwed foreign countries for greed, and had stood by allies and friends, maybe we'd be regarded differently. 

Quoting JuniorCrooks, reply 6

I could not even care less if someone has my banking info because they can't steal what I don't have.

But they can buy an s-load of things and assume your identity and leave you in a hole so deep you'd have a lot more rice in your diet.

It isn't even about any of that "nothing to hide" nor "nothing to steal". It has to do with limiting the government to what it should be doing and keeping them the hell out of where they shouldn't be going in order to prevent it from usurping any or all of your rights.

Too many generations sacrificed their all to keep those rights sacrosanct, and no one, but no one has the right to give any of them away for the rest of us.

Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting JuniorCrooks, reply 6

That is not what is meant by nothing to hide. You are comparing nothing to hide with privacy and the 2 are different. I have nothing to hide as far as information goes, heck I could not even care less if someone has my banking info because they can't steal what I don't have. Just because I have nothing to hide does not mean I am about to give my privacy away. Try to come take a look in my basement for whatever reason and see how far you get, unless of course I am put in restraints by bigger men than I.

Sorry Junior....but your missing the real point here. I should not have to explain anything whatsoever about my life....what's in my house or bank account regardless of what is or isn't there. Once you go down that route you might as well just walk around naked and not try to own anything. This is fear mongering and invasion of ones personal life in the worst way. What's the reason for this in the first  place? Because some demented politicians tells you so...and your just going to bend over for him or her? Seriously...think...think about the far reaching repercussions of just giving some unknown ass wipe politician your right to privacy on every level...just because he wants to instill some imagined or made up reason for intruding on your life. Thanks but no thanks...not in a millions years.

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

I am as cynical as Doc, probably more.  Trust no one in government to ever do the 'right' thing.  You'll almost never go wrong with that approach.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Personally I don't see what all the hype is about. Like I've said before, I have nothing to hide and if all people would think that way they would not have to worry about the NSA or any other government agency collecting data by whatever means necessary towards protecting lives. One single phone call or one single email setting up a terrorist strike being missed by the NSA or whomever could result in the massive loss of life. Cutting off that ability is merely promoting terrorists and allowing them an easy way to terrorize the human race.

 

While I'm not particularly worried about the NSA tapping my phone,(me telling a PAC to go fuck themselves when they call at 9am is as dirty as it gets) it's amusing that you consider your liberty to be promoting terrorism.

 

Government is filled with people, and people are assholes.  Do you think that just because some guy works at the NSA, he's going to be a perfect person and not exploit juicy tidbits, spy on his ex, or ruin his neighbors life over dog shit in his yard?  This shit happens all the time, they pass it off as some sort of workplace behavior issue instead of imprisoning them for the felonies they've committed.  You don't need something to hide for an invasion of your private communications to cause you serious grief.  Telling your wife that your boss is an asshole could get you fired because your neighbor is a bit of a lunatic, works at the NSA, and hates your dog for barking at him.

 

The Branch Davidians are a great example of this.  Koresh was a nut, his followers were nuts, but they were also pretty harmless and generally law abiding nuts at face, involved in a legal gun business with no evidence to the contrary.  Several months before the raid, the AFT was invited to come to the compound and do an inspection, by Koresh himself, when agents were conversing with his gun dealer, the agents wouldn't even talk to him.  Later, the ATF obtained an unneccessary warrant for their raid by misleading a judge on the activities they were partaking in, and a huge convoy of heavily armed agents and vehicles that are basically tanks, roll up on these paranoid nuts who think the end is nigh after refusing to communicate with them and inspect their business when invited to do so.  Is it any surprise that they got the completely reasonable idea that the government had come to kill them all for no reason?  I might get the idea myself if I didn't know they just wanted to do a perp walk and march them all out in cuffs before giving them all their guns back a few months later.

 

Our government has already gone dark side in a major way, and it's not something new to the patriot act.  The ATF worries me a hell of a lot more than the terrorists do, we can go and stomp them into a greasy spot for bothering us.  The ATF, on the other hand, happens to be "we" in the first place, so we're sorta fucked when it comes to stomping them into a greasy spot.  They basically do whatever the hell they want to, and the government backs them up on it no matter how many people die as a result of their felony laced fund raising efforts.

Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top

So, so glad I don't live in the US, where power a hungry government wants to know when you last blew your nose, ate, drank and shit.... tho with its new data retention laws forcing telcos to keep our information for 2 years plus, I have no doubt that the Australian government is following suit and doing heaps of sneaky shit behind our backs.  And is it really about national security? 

To some extent, perhaps so, but much of the retained data will be of little or no consequence to national security.  No, the retained data will have more significance to corporate entities and government, and could be used in ways that are not in the national interest, but against individuals for whatever reasons.  I have nothing to hide... today, but who knows in a few weeks time, a few months or next year.  By then I could be suspect No 1 for all I know... and not because I'd done anything different from today, but because government moved the goal posts... or because a corporate entity discovered a way to accuse me of something that's legal today but not tomorrow.

So, Lightstar and others who think having nothing to hide is enough protection, please think again.  Today you may be safe, but tomorrow may be a whole different ball game.

Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting starkers, reply 12

So, Lightstar and others who think having nothing to hide is enough protection, please think again.  Today you may be safe, but tomorrow may be a whole different ball game.

 

All I am saying is that I have led and continue to lead what I feel is a good and clean life, so I have no reason to fear my own government at this time. Granted, that could change, but not at present.

Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting LightStar, reply 13

All I am saying is that I have led and continue to lead what I feel is a good and clean life, so I have no reason to fear my own government at this time. Granted, that could change, but not at present.

Although I fully believe that you have led that life, Tom, your conclusions from that are not correct (if only from the naivete of the truly good).

Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I agree with Doc and Psychoak.  Now to see what people think of Jade Helm 15!  Tanks rolling down someones street.

Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Ya know, folks, whatever is wrong with the current US gov't... it is repeated when the next US gov't is elected.  The disease is inherrent and is to bound be repeated over and over again because nobody has the balls to say "we got it wrong".

To be honest, any US citizen who bets the farm or their lives on the Bill of Rights, the constitution and/or its various amendments is a fechen fool.  The US government places no value in any of that whatsoever, holding true only that which gives it greater control over the US populace, by implementing new laws and constitutional amendments that effectively repeal and/or revoke your rights as US citizens. 

Get past the bullshit of national security, people, and see it for what it really is... governmental surveillance and even greater control. The sooner US citizens say no to being treated with such contempt and being bullied into submission the better

If a 'suspect' group/person requires monitoring due to suspect behaviours, fine, do your job, but after that, government has no business whatsoever to pry into the lives of ordinary, law abiding citizens who have no criminal history or ties to suspect organisations.  However, despite 100% innocence, absolutely no ties to terrorist organisations, ect, people in the US are being monitored by govenment, whether they pose a threat to national security or not.

Put bluntly. the US government needs a swift kick up the arse... to be told: "Look out for our interests, don't impose yours on us,"

So, as an Aussie, why am I so interested in the US political lanndscape/what your effwits are doing to you?

Sadly, the effwits in Canberra tend to think with their arses and will want to follow suit, hoping to inpose the same bullshit on us.

Thankfully, we Aussies don't wear bullshit well, and it's defeated sooner rather than later.

 

Reply #17 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Quoting starkers, reply 16

Ya know, folks, whatever is wrong with the current US gov't... it is repeated when the next US gov't is elected.  The disease is inherrent and is to bound be repeated over and over again because nobody has the balls to say "we got it wrong".

That's not necessarily the case. Some front-runner candidates are running on a platform against spying, i.e. pro constitution. We have a chance to elect someone who is in favor of the 4th amendment on principle. Some of those people have a strong pro constitution record. Now we've all been duped before, and it won't be the last time, so there's always that. The cynic in me says you are 100% right. But I'd rather at least have someone who says they are pro 4th amendment than someone who thinks continued spying is necessary for national security, and then we the people would hold them to their word.

Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Please leave politics (specific parties/candidates) out of this. 

Thanks.

Reply #19 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting eviator, reply 17


Quoting starkers,
reply 16

Ya know, folks, whatever is wrong with the current US gov't... it is repeated when the next US gov't is elected.  The disease is inherrent and is to bound be repeated over and over again because nobody has the balls to say "we got it wrong".



That's not necessarily the case. Some front-runner candidates are running on a platform against spying, i.e. pro constitution. We have a chance to elect someone who is in favor of the 4th amendment on principle. Some of those people have a strong pro constitution record. Now we've all been duped before, and it won't be the last time, so there's always that. The cynic in me says you are 100% right. But I'd rather at least have someone who says they are pro 4th amendment than someone who thinks continued spying is necessary for national security, and then we the people would hold them to their word.

There's nothing wrong with holding onto some faith in those elected officials who still offer hope and try to make things better.  At the same time, there's nothing wrong with being that bit cynical as well.  If you can maintain a healthy balance of both, well you have a better chance of sifting out the bullshit and get a little closer to the truth and what is reality.

Quoting DrJBHL, reply 18

Please leave politics (specific parties/candidates) out of this. 

Thanks.

That's alright, Doc, I wouldn't dream of mentioning specific so n' so's of such n' such... nah, not me. O:)

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LightStar, reply 13

I have led and continue to lead what I feel is a good and clean life, so I have no reason to fear my own government at this time.

Gee, do you think you should stand up for your freedoms now, while you have a voice, or when you have reason to fear the government (too late to act)? The "I have nothing to hide" argument is incredibly weak and fallacious. Anyone interested in using critical thought (you clearly are not) can and has cracked it right open.

Do you invite the police to inspect your house for no reason? Do you send the IRS more information than what they require or request? Would you voluntarily tell a police officer, who just stopped you for speeding, about the irresponsible things you did as a young person?

Remember what the US government did to Japanese citizens during WWII. We had prison camps in this country. Look back at McCarthyism and the Red Scares. Fearing the government is not merely a matter of paranoia.

Do you want the government to have a massive database of decades of your data that they can cherry pick? What if we find ourselves in a war, and the government is VERY desperate for some specialized labor you can provide but at too high a cost? At that time, will you be happy and comfortable with them knowing more about you than you know about yourself?

A "good and clean life" is a meaningless phrase suited only for rationalizing an entrenched position. This isn't about morality, it's about participating in our democracy. Use your rights or possibly lose them. If you're going to be a thoughtless drone, at least have the courtesy to be silent about it.

Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top

OK...now let's just stop calling people names.  It will only end in tears and they won't be mine....;)

Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting davrovana, reply 20

A "good and clean life" is a meaningless phrase suited only for rationalizing an entrenched position. This isn't about morality, it's about participating in our democracy. Use your rights or possibly lose them. If you're going to be a thoughtless drone, at least have the courtesy to be silent about it.

 

Ignored....  ;P

Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting davrovana, reply 20

A "good and clean life" is a meaningless phrase suited only for rationalizing an entrenched position. This isn't about morality, it's about participating in our democracy. Use your rights or possibly lose them. If you're going to be a thoughtless drone, at least have the courtesy to be silent about it.

In fact it isn't. You have no idea how truly good a person LightStar is. I only know a bit, but it's enough to make me proud he's my friend. He's thoughtful, and good. 

In these Forums, people respect each others' right to have their own opinions and disagree politely...

You should pay close heed to Jafo's advice.

Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting DrJBHL, reply 23


Quoting davrovana,
reply 20

A "good and clean life" is a meaningless phrase suited only for rationalizing an entrenched position. This isn't about morality, it's about participating in our democracy. Use your rights or possibly lose them. If you're going to be a thoughtless drone, at least have the courtesy to be silent about it.



In fact it isn't. You have no idea how truly good a person LightStar is. I only know a bit, but it's enough to make me proud he's my friend. He's thoughtful, and good. 

In these Forums, people respect each others' right to have their own opinions and disagree politely...

You should pay close heed to Jafo's advice.

 

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww, thanks Doc!  :blush:

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DrJBHL, reply 23

In these Forums, people respect each others' right to have their own opinions and disagree politely...

Doc, you were wise to post about this crucial issue in the OP. If people don't show some opposition to unregulated surveillance we risk people's very right to have their own opinions, on the internet in general.

Name calling was hardly the focus in my opinion, understanding the issue is the focus. That was my intent all along. If my use of the phrase 'thoughtless drone' distracted from my argument, then it was a mistake.

I totally believe you that LightStar is a great guy. But you yourself rightly took issue with his dismissal of the problem in Reply #14.

Did I get too excited? Maybe. But am I the only one who gets angry in response to apathy on this issue? If I am, is that a good thing?