Drengin Drengin

Bug Report for v1.12.079

Bug Report for v1.12.079

hopefully there will be very few if any bugs in this version. but here is the thread to list them.
8,556 views 236 replies
Reply #76 Top
How about not uploading a score to the system. Anyone have that problem when uploading the score to the Metaverse? Just finished a game today, not posted. Lat game shows on 11.15.03.
Reply #78 Top
2) Player can extract peace concessions and immediately return to war, with no penalty. (Meaning the peace deal was a complete bad-faith ripoff -- something that would have enormous diplomatic consequences in any context, but has no effect in GalCiv).

***

Well that does happen in real life. You do get bad faith ripoffs. I've often taken a races remaining planets less there capital and then attacked them with a transport next turn to wipe them out. My only concern is if enough people do it and submit games, the AI might start doing it to us during games in the future.

But I agree, it might be a good idea to either weaken your allignment or create lower morale if you do it within say, three months. But then wouldn't we all just get an ally to go to war with them, be obligated to go to war too, then circumvent the three months because they are now an enemy officially? Still cheesy, just slightly more complicated lol.

Yakumo_Fuji
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Reply #79 Top
Cosmetic: "Good alignment" view - the white one - leaves info in the ship window (bottom of screen near right end) overwritten and illegible...

Crash: I am occasionally getting a 'dump' - the game drops from memory entirely. I will try to notice any pattern... (Would smartexception show anything in these circumstances? If so, what email do I send the log to?)
Reply #80 Top
Two new items that no one else has mentioned in this build:

1. Both Terran and AI races were stopped from building on a resource. The "you're too close to another starbase" message popped up when I tried to build on it. The AI just kept stacking constructors on the resource to no effect.

2. I can't submit a game to the Metaverse now. I just reinstalled the OS and freshly reinstalled GalCiv and when I tried to submit my just finished game it just sits there on the "Submit" screen. I had to manually kill the GalCiv process to get out of that screen. No crash. No SmartException window. Just nothing. After a very long time it came back with "Send Test Failed."

Cheers

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Reply #81 Top
Two Altarian constructors just spontaneously turned into starbases close to one of my planets. No free resources were in sight. I'm guessing a bug here?
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Not a bug, Kevin, just annoying. Remember that you can build a starbase ANYWHERE by just double-clicking on the constructor, and selecting "Plant Starbase." The AI can - and often does - build a ton of tiny starbases all over the place, although the Arceans are the usual culprit.
Reply #82 Top
Not a bug, Kevin, just annoying. Remember that you can build a starbase ANYWHERE by just double-clicking on the constructor, and selecting "Plant Starbase." The AI can - and often does - build a ton of tiny starbases all over the place, although the Arceans are the usual culprit.
End of quote


Oh Right! I didnt know that but it opens up some handy possibilities when I've missed out on resources. :) Thanks.
Reply #83 Top

Sirian: I'll check into the first one.  I'm not sure why the population would still be attached to the colony or transport ships, because it's supposed to dump the population back into the system.

As for the second, we are aware of it and it is on the to do list.

Are you saying that any race can research the alignment restricted techs, or that they can trade for them?  If it's the latter, that's easily fixed by not letting those techs show up in the trade list if you can't research them yourself.

rubberduckyzz: I'll talk to Brad and see if we can work on AI fleets.  I'll also bring up your remarks on the random events at our next meeting, because that is a very good point.

ForesterGC: We actually have code in there for neogotiating surrender, but it needs text and probably testing. I'll remind Brad about that.

rubberduckyzz: do you have the movies in your movies or gfx directory?

fsk+: We were messing around with that, and we could get GC to work windowed in 32 bit color except that our fonts didn't show up. I'll add your suggestion of a popup to my list.

Kevin: they may be trying to increase their range or build culture modules.

Ralegh: If it's a crash, SmartException should pick it up.  You can e-mail the report to me at [email protected]

Magus: you're playing with 1.12? Are you using the prompts or not?  Are your ships on autopilot or not, and does it make a difference?  Has anything changed with your internet connection? Are you using any new firewall or ad blocking software or anything like that?

 

 

Reply #84 Top
Carielf,

I'm not sure why the population would still be attached to the colony or transport ships, because it's supposed to dump the population back into the system.
End of quote


It's not still "attached." I think the orbiting ship carries the amount of pop that it would have if it were auto-launched.

This makes invasions MUCH easier.

Are you saying that any race can research the alignment restricted techs, or that they can trade for them?
End of quote


Trade, and your suggested fix is a good start. However, it doesn't stop a race from continuing to use techs that it researched. So I can become a demonic race and research Dark Side, then take a bunch of good choices and become saintly and still get the benefit of the Dark Side. Personally I don't think this is a very big deal.

they may be trying to increase their range or build culture modules
End of quote


Don't know about his particular game, but the AI really does build a lot of pointless starbases. Particularly the Arceans.
Reply #85 Top
cari - did the fundamentalist event get 'tweaked' in update, cause now it rocks! just had 4 out of 5 majors wiped out in one go! MWHAHAHAHAHA

~SDC~
Reply #86 Top
Magus: you're playing with 1.12? Are you using the prompts or not? Are your ships on autopilot or not, and does it make a difference? Has anything changed with your internet connection? Are you using any new firewall or ad blocking software or anything like that?
End of quote


Version is 1.12.079
Prompts: on
Autopilot: yes or no makes no difference.
Same DSL connection
New OS (Windows XP)
New install of GalCiv

ZoneAlarm is in use but I haven't had problem with it in the past. I didn't have time to test it yet but I'll disable it tonight and try to resubmit the game.
Reply #87 Top

vincible: I'm not certain that it should be changed so that you can't use a tech if your alignment changes.  You still know how to use it.  There's nothing magical that would make a civ forget how to build deathknights if they suddenly started doing good deeds.

Lord Megatron: No, I think it's just random.  :)  But if we get enough reports of that happening, I'll take a look at the code.  We did some code cleanup, which may have affected how something was initialized.

Reply #88 Top
Magus: please send me your save game and I'll see if I can figure out what's going on with the resources.  It worked fine when I tested it here.
Reply #89 Top
cari - may i ask you to look at this thread http://www.galciv.com/forum.asp?BID=GF&id=112046#113058. how do we get this actioned please. there seems to be plenty of backing for it.
thanks and sorry to trouble you again :)

~SDC~
Reply #90 Top
Sirian: I'll check into the first one. I'm not sure why the population would still be attached to the colony or transport ships, because it's supposed to dump the population back into the system.
End of quote


The distinction you are drawing does not exist. Rather, the game behaves as if both cases are true: the planet is full (all people merged) for all planet-related issues, but the ships are full if attacked.

A typical AI system will have two colony ships and two to three transports just sitting around. Say there are three planets in the system with 20 billion people each. If that system is targetted by a "sneak attack", each colony ship (in orbit) that is destroyed will reduce the system population by about 25%. Two colony ships killed off thus kills off nearly HALF the population in the system. Transports killed off after that can take it down by another 5 billion each. That same system that started with 60bil can have as few as 15 billion left after killing five or six ships in orbit. This is warships attacking systems with colony ships and transports in orbit. No invasion yet. In fact, invasion is not even possible until orbitting ships are destroyed. Thus the amount of troops needed to invade is almost always a lot less than it should be.

People on the planets are treated as if they were loaded onto the colony ships and transports in orbit, and wiped out BY THE BILLIONS, which makes no sense. This breaks the AI, which insists on parking several colony ships and transports in orbit around every system "to have them ready in case needed", but in actuality just to act as deathtraps for their own people :SURPRISED: game after game after game.

This flaw renders AI's way too easy to take down, including by other AI's. As soon as any AI gains a full space superiority advantage, the war is over, because they'll decimate the enemy population and production base by reaching the enemy planets and killing all the colony ships and transports in orbit.

Please fix it. It's broken. :)


As for the second, we are aware of it and it is on the to do list.
End of quote


Thank you. :D Looking forward to trying out improved versions. :)


Are you saying that any race can research the alignment restricted techs, or that they can trade for them? If it's the latter, that's easily fixed by not letting those techs show up in the trade list if you can't research them yourself.
End of quote


Not letting them show up in the trade list would be a great start! That still does not address the full issue, though. There's more to it. I'm not sure you realize just how easy it is to change alignment in GalCiv.

Player can send colony ships with 1 mil colonists (essentially empty) to low PQ planets to trigger additional morality events, then abandon the colony at no additional cost. Many events move morality by only 1 point, some by 3 to 5 points, but the big ones offer 10 point swings. You only need eight or nine of those to go from 0 to 100, or vice verse.

I don't see how you could stop this without the cure being worse than the disease, though, so please do not misunderstand me! I'm not asking you to stop the alignment swing. There are ways I can think of, but they all break legitimate colonization, and that's not worth your time. Instead, I propose that you reduce the value attached to wide swings of alignment. Essentially, the unintended consequences should be addressed. Make alignment a real choice, with change still possible, but the benefits of alignment applying only if you STAY that alignment.

Many of the top ranked players start by leaning evil, gaining all the planetary bonuses for their own worlds, and gaining access to the evil-specific techs. Then when they have gotten all the important evil techs, they swing all the way back to good and grab all of those, too. Most are doing this for the score, since scoring is so highly dependent on wonders. Some are choosing all evil opponents, so they get the benefit of easy relations at first on top of it all, then when they have firm alliances with any significant rivals (alliance which the AI can't ever break) they swing back to good, and pick up all the benefits of being good on top of what they had, PLUS they get bonus score for ending the game "opposite alignment" of all the evil opponents. It's a big sham, in effect, gaining credit (score) for what you intended to be the most difficult scenario, but what in practice is merely a milk run most of the time.

Rather than remove the ability to change alignment on a dime (especially on the largest maps, where there is a huge supply of junk planets to trigger as many morality events as player desires), instead enforce the alignment benefits. Let the benefits apply only if player's alignment continues to match that associated with the tech. Then the ability to change alignment on a dime would no longer offer nonsensical rewards.

And even if player does not exploit extra free shots at planetary morality events, it's still easy enough to change alignment from 0 to 100 on a huge or gigantic map over the course of the game. Settling PQ12-14 for legitimate reasons triggers more events, plus a longer game played out across the full tech tree sees many time-triggered morality events, too. The junk planet loophole merely brings the same result more quickly.

vincible: I'm not certain that it should be changed so that you can't use a tech if your alignment changes. You still know how to use it. There's nothing magical that would make a civ forget how to build deathknights if they suddenly started doing good deeds.
End of quote


With all due respect, you are missing the point on this one. Alignment-based techs are not a matter of knowledge, but of the morality involved. Death Knights do not have morality attached to them, but The Better Way does, and so does Master Race.

Take the case Vincible cited, of The Dark Side. Can only evil research into the dark side? Functionally, yes, within the game, but practically no. In real life, if such a science existed, anyone with the prerequisite breakthroughs could look into it. Yet only evil civilizations would CHOOSE to spend their resources researching how to construct an artifact into which to feed live people for the benefit of murdering them to gain their "life force power" as an energy source, akin to electricity. Only an evil civilization would research that, only an evil civilization would build it, and only an evil civ would continue to use it once it was built. If the civ stopped being evil, it would shut the thing down.

The same is true for good-alignment techs. Cure for Depression, for example. Only a good civ would spend its resources looking into this technology, and whatever the "cure" turned out to be, only a good civ would continue to spend the resources to fund the ongoing cure.

Only a good civ would be ABLE to "xeno persuade" other civs into accepting more trade, while only an evil civ would resort to "xeno intimidation". The two of these are mutually exclusive right on the face of it! How could they possibly be in use at the same time? They would cancel each other out if any civ tried, yet in the game as it now stands, both may be used if you have the tech. I see this as faulty on both counts: it makes no sense to the context of the game, and it is unbalanced as a strategy, too.

If changing alignment allows players to chase down rewards and scoring bonuses, a lot players will do that. If sticking to one alignment "penalizes" the player compared to treating alignment as one more game element to exploit, to extract extra bonuses and score from flopping alignment all over the map, what are players going to do? And how are "average" players going to feel about "top" players making use of this? If you can address it without breaking normal game function, isn't that worth your effort?

Good civs would not choose to do evil, and evil civs would not be able to fool anybody into believing they were good, to be able to benefit from good techs.

Thus it is not about knowledge, but about alignment. That any alignment can acquire and use, or continue to benefit from, any tech in the game, defeats the whole purpose of alignment-based tech, in my view.

If not for the easy ability to change alignment almost at will, then removing alignment-based tech from the trade screen (as you offered) would be good enough. However, we can change alignment almost at will, especially on large maps. Therefore you should anticipate players being both good and evil in the same game and account for it, by preventing not only research, but construction, and even all forms of benefit of alignment-based effects and improvements, if alignment does not match up. I would even go so far as to say that players should not even gain the scoring benefit of alignment-based wonders and trade goods for which their alignment at game's end no longer matches.

Put some teeth into the choice of alignment. Make the player's CURRENT alignment count for something. Make alignment an ongoing requirement, not just an entry pass to be discarded at player's convenience. Please? :)


- Sirian
Reply #91 Top
after playing version 1.12 for a while now i must say i think the improvements are fantastic.:CONGRAT:
The new minors a.i. is great if you play with the map size tiny or small, but too intense if you play bigger maps. we know of the problems with the logos, minimap and up council :( but overall i would like to say thanks to stardock and the programmers for delivering a great update. i look forward with high intrepidation for the updated version of 1.12. :)

~SDC~
Reply #92 Top
Yep United Planets here. Any workarounds until the update is released?

~SDC~
Reply #93 Top
Although I usually spend the same amount on espionage against all the major races, I've never succeeded in stealing tech from anyone but the Drengins. Is this a bug? If it matters, I've always played against "normal" intellegence opponents.
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Reply #94 Top
Disappearing ship caption bug.

Never saw this before. Rarely a ship caption ("automove") is hidden behind a planet. Cannot reproduce, but I have seen it three times at widely seperate times in a game. Happened to constructors only,
Reply #95 Top
Had an interesting bug in my last game . . . the Torian's Survey Vessel appeared next to SOL in the first turn of the game! (Thier only system was about 10 sectors away) . . . can send you the save if you'd like a look? :SURPRISED:

PS still getting the Altrians early war declaration all the time too . . .
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Reply #96 Top
Had an interesting bug in my last game . . . the Torian's Survey Vessel appeared next to SOL in the first turn of the game! (Thier only system was about 10 sectors away) . . . can send you the save if you'd like a look?
End of quote


they went through a worm hole the AI is crazy like that ;)

---

Rightio can't believe no one has noticed but the AI can still build Starbases within 3 squares of mine, they don't seem to do it within 3 of theirs but they don't seem to mind doing it within 3 of mine. damn cheating AI i also got a save game if you don't believe me ;)

also would it not be wise to actually think that although you have 50% spending on social/military production, if you have systems not building something than you shouldn't loss that money? since you aren't building or paying the workers wheres all that damn money going it hurts my economy too much towards the end of the game - just a hint but it does get annoying when you don't want everything built on every system :)

~SDC~
Reply #97 Top
I second the report about only stealing tech from the Drengin. Forgot to mention that one. It's another issue that has been around since I started playing. I have stolen probably twenty total techs through my 40ish games, ALL from the Drengin. Surely that exceeds all bounds of coincidence? Especially when as many as five other people have mentioned the same thing at other spots on the forum.


- Sirian
Reply #98 Top
Sirian

Meant to post this earlier but havn't had the time, but I'm in total agreement on the use of the Good/Evil techs and wonders, you can use one or the other, but it makes no sense to use both!

DarkPaladin
Reply #99 Top
they went through a worm hole the AI is crazy like that
End of quote


I didn't even think of that . . . mmm still it's happened (with the Tor) in my last two games . . . mabye it's a coincidence? Hmm I hadn't moved any of my ships either . . . if it happens in my next game I'll be officaly freaked out!
Reply #100 Top

FailedDreams: There was a significantly higher chance that you would steal from the Drengin.  I've changed this.

Maxtipherous: So the text under a ship is obscured by another image, usually that of a star?

Ginata el bohemio: was the ship there when the game started, or after you hit turn for the first time? Ie, is it possible that the survey ship went through a wormhole anomaly?

dracko81: please send me the save game at [email protected]. I'll need both the .sav file and the corresponding folder.