Jurgen,

I disagree with the desire for self designed ships. I enjoy designing my own ships but this is NOT required for a 4X game. Think of what 4X means. tactical combat does give a different type of game but that's what the moo series or SEIV is for. I want something different in galciv. A grand strategy game.

its all a matter of personal taste. you should read the overview of the game. it very clearly states that galciv is a strategy not tactical game and hence no ship battles. this would also suggest no ship design for these battles. from what you've stated you prefer tactical battlews to be part of your strategy experience, which is fine, but please don't try and turn galciv into more of the same. let it be what it's aiming to be.

paul

@ Solitair As I already mentioned in a post is that I think I wasted my money on this game. Its not the first game I buyed with a wrong thought about it and it wouldent be the last. For me the desining of the Ship interior is part of a 4E game.
4E means Explore, Expand, Exploit, and Exterminate so Combat is a 1/4 part of this game category.

Jurgen,

Well I think its too soon to make a decision on whether or not this game was worth buying. I think it would be more fitting to make that judgement when the game has finished.

I do however agree with you in that currently this game is way to basic in the ship building department. I mean, its like you research some advanced weapon technology and all you get is +10 to combat? Whoopie
Personally I would prefer the level of ship building which is in MOO2 or SE4.

Currently tho, if I was to give a score from 0 to 10 on the current beta, compared to other 4X strategy games, then I would rate it somewhere between 3-4. It just doesn't have enough 'meat' to pull in the hardcore 4X gamers. But of course this is only a very early beta and I know more features are going to be added, so I'll try and reserve my judgement for when the final game gets released.

Just my 2cents.

"Think of what 4X means. tactical combat does give a different type of game but that's what the moo series or SEIV is for. I want something different in galciv. A grand strategy game."

MOO and SE are not about grand strategy? you don't really mean it, don't you?

"Its all a matter of personal taste".

I do agree...

"You should read the overview of the game. it very clearly states that galciv is a strategy not tactical game and hence no ship battles."

From what i can see from the screeshots, space battles are pretty important for the game...there are tons flying around.

"This would also suggest no ship design for these battles. from what you've stated you prefer tactical battles to be part of your strategy experience, which is fine, but please don't try and turn galciv into more of the same. let it be what it's aiming to be."

I am still not sure if it's going to be SO different from the over space games even if it looks good.

PS: i agree when you say that ship design is not an obligation for that kind of game...but you cannot deny that there are a lot of battles (even Diplomacy and Intelligence are very important in the game).

Pascal,
I agree there are lots of battles. There should be! This is a 4x game. In Galciv though the battles are strategic not tactical. You send in your ships and watch the results. Galciv has more development under way and I'm sure the current situation will get better, but tactical battles where you move ships around and choose weapons are not planned.
This is a perfectly good approach, as seen in games like BOTF. Moo and SE are 'grand strategy' games and I love them both. But they are heavily focussed on the tactical aspect. Galciv is different. The overview in the encyclopedia clearly states so.

Jurgen, don't give up on the game yet. It's not going to be what you wanted, but hopefully if you give it a chaance it will be an enjoyable 4x game for you to play. Combat IS there, just more civ/BOFT style than MOO/Alpha Centuri.

Paul.

That the battel it self is strategic dosnt mean that you couldent desing the ships you use.
I will still watch this game but I dont belive that this game will get realy good it more looks like that it will use the bad features of both Civ and Space 4X games.
In Civ games (except Civ 3) your main concert was the city devlopment but galciv still missing this point in my eyes.
In Space 4X games one of the main concerts was the desing of the ships and the combat that are in seperate turns but this is totall missing in GalCiv.
GalCiv so fare I see it use the weaker city / planet deflopment of both game categorys and use the weaker Combat System of both.

Jurgen,
one likely development will be the ability to research strategies which release specific types of ships. Rather than designing a ship you could possibly research a type of ship/strategy (such as missile boat, or flank attack fighter) which could then be used in a strategic battle (you send the ships, the computer works out the result). This would keep the Galciv ethos while giving people a greater sense on battle control.
Paul.

I really woudl like to avoid debating things that are clearly unresolvable...

But ship designining is certainly not a requirement of a 4X strategy game. Jurgen, it sounds to me you simply want Masters of Orion. I guess you make sure you get that. They will have ship design.

We have never suggested that we would have ship designing as part of GalCiv. It is, in my view, a waste of development resources because it takes away from the macro scale of the game.

This isn't a tactical combat game. It's a strategy game with the emphasis on building a civilization that has to compete at all levels with competing civilizations.

To me, ships are like chess pieces on a board. I don't want to personally decide which weapon is going to be fired, I only care about the larger strategic options.

I like tactical battles too, but for that, I can buy Masters of Orion. But I want a game that is going to focus on providing as much strategic depth as possible and that is what we're focusing on with GalCiv. Not all games are for all people.

Judging a game from its beta is ridiculous. Most of the game features aren't even in yet. Just the basic "build stuff, colonize, blow thigns up" content. Little of the diplomacy and events and ethics systems are in which represent the bulk of the game.

Designing ships is fun. It adds personal choice to the game in an immediate sense, which dosen't hurt even the most cerebral of games. A players strategy may take hours or days to unfold, but that long-range, low offense cruiser I just designed sure was neat. People who are beta testing the game (and those that will eventually buy it) aren't looking for a RTS (in its present day sense), but a little extra flash wouldn't hurt.

I agree: Designing ships IS fun. It's my favorite feature of MOO.

But designing ships isn't a requirement to be a 4X strategy game.

And if the choice is having more depth for diplomacy or designing ships, then I'd choose diplomacy.

Because you can't get away with just designing ships. Once you get into designing ships, then users want to be able to see them battle. Then users want to be able to actually control the battle. Then users want the battle to be displayed in a visually appealing way (i.e. a nice 3D engine for starters).

Pretty soon, you've ditched having a complex diplomacy AI, lots of events, and all sorts of other features.

I trust the MOO developers to do the sihp design/battles correctly so I'll get MOO when I want to do that.

Similarly, I know we can do the diplomacy and depth of gameplay correctly so I want us to do that.

I agree with you Frogboy.
Birth of the Federation is still my fav game and you cannot design your own ships...(besides i am a MOO gamer and i am looking forward to MOO3). So the fact that you cannot design ships doesn't bother me and as you say, the ones that want that feature can buy MOO3. Besides, it's also more realistic not to be able to...which president can take care of things like that.
What i am looking for in this game is Diplomacy (and i really do hope that the empires can end wars between each other...or offer help) and the events (which should be real fun)
I'll buy both games anyway

While I also like BOF (I'm playing a game now between GC crashes to alleviate the frustration), I always felt that its handling of combat left a lot to be desired. Too fast, and a crushing defeat of half your fleet was treated the same as a retreat of one scout (morale wise).

A lot of features aren't requirements for 4x games, but successful ones do tend to have a good balance. If GC's diplomacy is its primary draw, and the beta's diplomacy model is up and running, then someone better hurry up and add the ship building algorithms. Or, since this is a diplomacy game, the gwbushithms! LOL