Brad Wardell

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Dark Avatar beta eve..

Some thoughts before it's unleashed...

I'm weary. Weary to the marrow of my bones. It's been a long time since I've been this fatigued. Part of it is obviously getting this beta out but things have been really busy elsewhere with Windows Vista ready.

This whole year really is absurd. But November to January in particular is just out of control. Windows Vista ships in January and is already starting to perkle out there. Nintendo Wii this month. Playstation 3 this month. There's just SOOO much going on that the noise is deafening.

And as I work on tweaking the AI and trying to get some semblance of balance in the values, I feel the fatigue taking over.

So here's my review of the Dark Avatar beta (I'm biased but my work has been purely on AI lately):

I think most people are going to like it a LOT if they remember it's a beta.
It's pretty stable. No crashes on me yet tonight.
The new graphics are very nice. I notice all the explosions and such look nice.
Some of the new weapons effects are really nice (big shout out to Stefan who donated some new effects there too -- thank you!)
Agents. Wow. This is going to be tough to balance. Very tough. How much they cost, how much they affect the game, etc. I think at a certain point players will need to recognize that they will probably have agents on their planets and that they'll need to live with that unless they are dominating. At first, I tried to eliminate every agent placed on my planets by the alien players but eventually I realized that I could "live" with a few on my planets as long as they weren't on key structures. Otherwise I'm just spending way too much of my economy battling them and not using it to do harm to my opponents.
The AI needs a LOT of work still. I've got a huge list in front of me. There are more new strategic elements going from II to DA than there was going from Galciv 1 to Galciv II. Spies, asteroid fields, planet environments, lots of new techs, treaties. It really is a whole new -- better -- game.
I don't like the pacing yet. It needs work. We've made some changes to things -- factories produce a LOT less to make the asteroid fields matter more and to encourage fusion power plants and the like. But that also means the AI needs to get a lot better at asteroid mining, starbase building, etc.

Stay tuned...

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Hi!

Agents. Wow. This is going to be tough to balance. Very tough. How much they cost, how much they affect the game, etc. I think at a certain point players will need to recognize that they will probably have agents on their planets and that they'll need to live with that unless they are dominating. At first, I tried to eliminate every agent placed on my planets by the alien players but eventually I realized that I could "live" with a few on my planets as long as they weren't on key structures. Otherwise I'm just spending way too much of my economy battling them and not using it to do harm to my opponents.

Please don't go the Starlords (pre-MoO1 game) way. There one had to spend into counter-espionage for EVERY race, and that really broke player's economy. In MoO1 and MoO2 it was enough to spend econ or use spies on empire as whole, and they defended against every other race at the same time. You could allow that also in DA, so player that would like to avoid MM-ing "cold war" coul just buy spies and send them on empire-wide counter-inteligence. But if he'd put them on "infested" planet, they'd have greater probability to elliminate offending spy(s).

My 2c.

BR, Iztok

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I-Mod Stefan

Join Date 02/2006

+42

Thx! I feel honored =o) hope the Fans will like the weapon effects too =o)
I'm excited to see all the new features and have more possibilities to mod

My very new effect can be downloaded at the library ;o)

going to upload some more the time...

thx that you mentioned me =o)

-Stefan

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I WANT TO PLAY NOW

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Wow Brad, I feel your pain and weariness, college is wearing thin, and all this gaming stuff, too much to do! and you are writing programs a million times more complicated than my exegetical papers, mad props to you dude, thank you for all your work to make this such an awesome game that I will be playing for many more years to come

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Lord Reliant

Join Date 03/2006

+39

Thanks for the dedication you and the team put in. Hopefully those in the beta will be able to take some of the burden off of you for the play testing and you guys can concentrate more on game mechanics, AI, and bugs. I'm sure the beta of DA will be rewarding, from everyone's standpoint.

I am a bit concerned about the pacing as well. Between the restrictions on colonization, reduced industry, and now increased espionage, turns may start taking a bit too long. I'll save that judgment for later, but just a fear that sounds like it's being share.

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I am a bit concerned about the pacing as well. Between the restrictions on colonization, reduced industry, and now increased espionage, turns may start taking a bit too long. I'll save that judgment for later, but just a fear that sounds like it's being share.

Then will have to increase the duration of a turn from 1 week to 1 month (as many have asked) so that you will have more time for all that micro-management.

Seriously, you don't know how long a turn can sometimes last when you play a gigantic map with hundreds of planets at the top three difficultly levels.

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Lord Reliant

Join Date 03/2006

+39

I've played gigantic, but only at above normal. At that point I had over-colonized the computers, so it was more of a matter of when I won instead of if, but I did go for an Influence win, so that took much more effort (and planet micro-managing). Propulsion techs are crucial for that strategy in a gigantic map.

I can only imagine how if the map was mostly populated and at war how complex and crazy every turn would be on gigantic!

I hate to say it, but if the AI really breaks down on tiny and gigantic, should those levels be allowed? It might make testing a bit easier. Then again, perhaps it might point out areas of AI that need improvement- sort of a litmus test.

Speaking of galaxy size, does the AI know or care about the galaxy size? I could see that being taken into consideration to make the AI more effective.

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First - Thanks for all the work you guys put in! You are really the first gaming company I'm aware of that has committed so much communication between you and your customers/fans! Its great. I love being able to come here to see whats going on, and its one of the biggest reasons why I got into the game so much and its moddability.

Second, where where where? Sorry, been thinking about testing it all day, and can't wait to get my hands on it to start testing it out.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

There's definitely plenty of things to do. I find each turn a lot busier than before because of the space mining and spies.

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The story seems good so far. Will I be able to copy the story onto word or a similar program to edit to my own tastes if I desire to do so? It does not look like I can, unless the game creates a text file behind the scenes.

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The epic story screen in the game is just one outlet that you can view the created epic. An editable HTML version will also be made in your "my games" directory. This will eventually include images as well, something we couldn't properly do in-game.

We'll also be doing alot more writing so don't worry if you get some of the same story snippets the first few games...the more content we add, the more unique each story will be, so by "gold" the system should be considerably more versitile.

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ahhh! that epic generator has me wishing thanksgiving break were here already! i have a car trip and one very boring thanksgiving to fill since i'm not gonna be able to pick up a wii

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Then will have to increase the duration of a turn from 1 week to 1 month (as many have asked) so that you will have more time for all that micro-management.

Yuck.

At first, I tried to eliminate every agent placed on my planets by the alien players but eventually I realized that I could "live" with a few on my planets as long as they weren't on key structures.

That's a problem. There needs to be a way to do away with enemy agents without having to track ever single one of them down. That's a chore, it's not fun, and while some people will learn to "live" with the enemy agents, others will try to eliminate every last one of them, and they will find the process very annoying. Some sort of global counter-espionage fund would be the best way to do it.

Frankly, I'm getting concerned about the path that Stardock is taking. You guys seem to be concerning yourselves with adding complexity. Galciv 2 succeeded because of its simplicity, and it seems you are toying with fire here. Power plants and other multipliers are completely unneeded, and the new espionage model seems to need a lot of micromanagement.

Remember that you're dealing with the 4x genre. It is really easy to make a game boring and bogged down. Streamlining is everything. The mark of a truly great 4x game is that it has very little bloating, even in late game.

Hopefully soon I will be able to play the beta, so I can be of more use, and see exactly what is improved upon or what is detracting in DA.

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I think the point is that you're not meant to completely eradicate the enemy spies as its a huge drain on your economy, but if you really want to and your economy can handle the expense, its possible. Frogboy didn't say that it was too much effort trying to kill them, but that his economy cant afford to sustain that level of security.

Powerplants were already in GC2, they were just pretty pointless. Reducing factory output makes it worth putting them on your industrial worlds now instead of just building more factories.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

The espionage screen lists every agent you have on enemy planets and every enemy agent on your plaent and lets you deal with them there. How much easier can that be?

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I haven't had a chance (although I'm going to, asap) to play the beta yet, so I've just been going on what I've heard on the forums. Something you said seemed to imply to me that dealing with enemy spies was a tedius process, but It seems I misunderstood you.

I still don't see why you need to add multipliers onto the planet screen though; seems like it'll just breed more micro-management and clutter. It’s not as if those buildings are a game play necessity.

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Lord Reliant

Join Date 03/2006

+39

Brad-

Aren't you a new father? Add that to your list of everything previous and your level of weariness just increased 10-fold. I've got two young ones, so I can empathize with you there! I think there's like an inverse correlation between the amount of gaming one can accomplish and the amount of time required by kids. I'm not complaining- I love my kids and spending time with them, it's just priorities have to change (or should, anyway).

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Okay I've got an idea for like the Spies and balancing; I'm not sure how your math goes but say if you add an addittional Tech to the Spy-Tech-Branch or what-not having them sort of sequenced throughout the tech branch on that particular area. A sort of "Buffer" Tech like say

"%YourParty Burue of Investigation Center" Mark I,II,II etcetera.

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Frogboy didn't say that it was too much effort trying to kill them, but that his economy cant afford to sustain that level of security.

Mild topical comment detected

)

Seriously though, I appove of this approach; diminishing returns make for interesting strategic choices rather than a boring " Simply set your security to x.y% exactly to eliminate spies ".

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