My suggestion with the UI :

Let players cast spells on themselves by right-clicking on the spells.

A mechanism could exist with allies with mini-portraits in UI. ( left clicking on the spell, then on portrait )

Increase the size of all the “little” biped demigods : Regulus, Erebus, Torch Bearer, Oak. 

Assassins feedback

Rook :

This demigod seems to have the largest array of possibilities : self heal, zone control, slow, burst and aoe damage, stun/interrupt, damage boost. Of course he can't do all at once, but other demigods look less varied in comparison. Moreover, He has some very good branch end skills, such as a the poisoned arrows

In team games two issues arise : quite early into the game, the rook is a good siege machine. This is not too much an issue in small maps like prison, but becomes quite unbearable in the largest 5vs5 games. On later levels, its almost as if he did'nt felt at all these towers.

Then there is boulder + hammer slam. Not the only combo in the game obviously, but when boulder is maxed, any melee/unlucky demigod is doomed to take the heavy punishment. Since only a high level oak shield can actually prevent the stun it's quite a burden. Maybe the maxed stun lengh is a bit too much. With warpstone, the rook can land his hammer without difficulty. On earlier levels, it's a fun mechanic both for rook and hostiles to land/avoid the big bang.

What definitively feels strange about the rook is the raw attack speed he can get on last level. As explained above, it makes most fixed values skills/item quite irrelevant.

Suggestions : tone down attack speed at later levels. Reduce maxed stun lengh/give it an higher cooldown.

Regulus :

Another fun character to play with. With toned down mines, he nows feels really delicate to use, but deadly. The setupt time for mines allows players to quickly retreat/avoid them and supress this "frag grenades" feeling they could have before. Only issue is that in some way they are more useful than snare.

Things that are annoying are the ultimate skills :

with snipe you get a small proc chance toblock, with snare you get a chance to remove mana. Btw, <5% proc values are far too random to build something around them.

Angel fury is a boring skill. Worse, the last levels gives you an AOE when you switch on en effect you'd want to have on in most cases, since you'd already spent 4 skill point in it.

Suggestions : swap the last skill level for snipe/snare. Maybe turn angel fury in some more violent skill with continuous mana drain. It would be used in short burst of anger and latest level would make more sense.

Beast :

It got a welcome upgrade from beta 2 and now smoothly plays its role of berzerker melee demigod. Ooze in now playable, with upgraded Hp efficiency.

Only issue imho is with the post mortem/plague branch. ON the one hand, post mortem alone allows to dispatch reinforcement groups at ease (and in most case you'd avoid using ooze for this) with only one skill point. Plague levels looks bland, with a long dot on ennemies. In team games, it revolves around explosive battles.

Suggestions : don't make the corpse explosion one shoot nearing reinforcement or more progressive with skill point. Since the beast has a disguntly beautiful death animation, it's a pity that it does'nt really poison/harm people upon dying. Maybe set it up as other effect of plague skill points ?

Torch :

A superb demigod, with many many possibilites. If you choose to play both fire and ice, the micro becomes franctic and fun.

So far in our games, he seemed quite quick to level up and provides heavy support. Somehow, he's more menacing than a supporting Regulus. Talking about minions, these guys can nullify them totally, but it's not a bother now Maybe zone stun effects should be a bit less powerful on minions than regular reinforcements.

Not too much to say at that point. He needs to be played carefully but is a worthy ally in any team game.

Melee vs ranged : One thing that occured in many games is that at some point, the raw damage output of melee characters gets so high it breaks down some midgame/early game mechanics. With a rook/beast landing 500+ strikes twice/s, what's the point of a 1000 fireball ? (I know it's ranged, yes, but you got the idea)

Generals feedback :

Minions : I repeat once more : they play no role in team game. They can't assist, they hardly focus, and use precious item/gold/skills for despicable results.

Oak :

He's by far the most general like : heals his men, buff them, get spirits from the battle, and get boosted by them. His minions still are the most useful ones. They can survive most aoe, they can flock on demigods... but they don't make any remarquable damage whatsoever. Enter the skill that boost the oak himself and voila, you got the only useful minions.

Other than that he's a bit bland to play. Invulnerability is a tremendously powerful spell on end game. Until then, its 35 s cooldown won't make it very enjoyable to use. Since spirit ward is used only from time to time, you end up only with the aoe boost and vengeance to spam.

SO we have a short and precise skill (invunerability) with long cd one other precise skill (vengeance)  : a bit cool

and a self centered aoe and once per minute skill (ward) : boring

Compare with shapeshifting demigods (torch, QoT), targeted aoe (slam, ice rain) and fancy things like mines.

Suggestions : I don't really know. Maybe shorten the CD of invulnerabilty at lower levels. Shorten its skill branch and lenghten another like vengeance to add some fancy last level effect.

Erebus : I did'nt get to play this Demigod enough to tell about him. From the players used to it, it's a very annoying character to face with, and even without regeneration mist + bats are a key survival pair. Not too general like, though, more like some kind of trickster.

Sedna : Not my favorite character but one of the most interesting support. You have to time carefully your heals/pounce/silence. Yeti nerf was welcome because these healer became the yeti war leader at some point. Now they suffer from their lak of speed and impact. Like other generals, that makes some branch uneeded.

Another thing is she don't feel so army friendly compared to the oak. Regeneration is one thing but yeah, you don't have all this green pleasure showing of on screen.

Suggestions : put some real visual effect with silence cast ! Only the target can tell if has been hit or not, and the range is only about guessing at that point. Maybe heal could get some aoe side effect at latest level. For the time when the minions will come back. Or make it latest level of healing wind.

Queen of thorns :

Okay, the most "violent" general, and one of the two shapeshifting characters. She's quite enjoyable to play and efficient on her own, but some points keep irritating me :

Level decay : spikes, mulch and shield are fixed value attacks/defense skill. Without side effect they'd turn obsolete on latest levels, with the tremendous dps/Hp available. Ho, shield has no side effect, whoops.

Shamblers' slave : so shamblers are no real good in team games. They are designed to make area damage. Too bad the queen herself is about doing area damage. And they use the shambler branch, the morale branch, the entourage, mulch and a fair part of compost branch. You can't avoid them

Siege specialist : okay a great siege ability. But why why a 5 point branch for something with such a specific scope ? Hell, even the rook at least get some health when destroying things. And big bad melee demigod totally own towers on late game. They don't have to spend for it.

Eating your pets : good, so the second skill on the closed path is a self heal. A usefull skill, but that makes the closed flower purely a defensive force, while open is both siege/debuffing/fun. And the more the closed buff is powerful, the more this situation is going to stay. May I add these skill don't help your team, neither your army and is subject to the dreaded level decay...

Suggestions : adding debuffs for the aoe was a good move and help differentiate the spike wave and the first aoe.

Compost may get back the bonus for the queen damage herself. Mulch may become something more fun, like healing and making shambler explode or whatever. Or put a draining vine instead, to suck up dry those nasty demigods.

Shorten the siege branch.

Give us something more noticeable as crowning skill for godess of thorns

And minions suggestions :

-let players see their stats. Show minion damage in a slightly differnt color that self. This will help to get a sens of your army's doing.

-get their AI better, let them focus on what you player ask them to focus on.

-give them passive or active abilities, unlockable by skill level/morale to give them some rôle other than secondary dps source. For instance :

minotaurs : a passive charge to quickly catch up with their target and maybe added damage/slowing effect.

priests : more frequent, less powerful heal salves. The erratic rate is quite disturbing. Make healing their main task

siege : small aoe or dot damage. More range.

General specific minions : yet to think about it.

Rook : we don't wanna beginnning with equipement constraint on character or introduce it to all axisting demigod.

Beast : attack speed at high level is fine, it's the character role.

Torch : yes it's auto attack versus spell and here is the issue. Itemization doesn't allow to upgrade spell effects and it's certainly better this way, though that means glass canons like the fire torch aren't that dangerous when reaching last level, because the beast for instance can output at least at much damage without being so glass like. Note that I don't mind this, at it may be a game mechanic. But currently, large games tend to always reach  15+ level, so that could be troublesome.

General specific minions : To go on with above suggestions, adding some side effect to minions attack/role, as a result of higher skill branch/morale would increase their interest. Currently, sending those on autoattack to a target with random result is not a fun nor a powerful tactic.

Yeti - Protectors  : Damage boost (big one) against any target currently attacking Sedna.

Spirits - harassers : as they currently are the most useful ones, simply boost their attack a bit. Maybe let them put a slight upper damage taken debuff.

Shamblers - thorny ground : they already work as little version of spike wave. Continue the analogy with them putting a speed debuff with their attacks. (maxing à -15%)

Dark...whatever vampire ones - servants : yeah, life steal for their hungry master. You won't lose a drip of demigod blood aren't you ?

Items feedback : 

The basic boot/helms/armors/gloves are pretty balanced up with a smooth ramp both in cost and effects.

Trinkets : to me, this section is about some specific items and a lot of forgettable ones.

Warp stone : useless to say, as many players already stated it, it's so much a must have with a gentle price that un teleporting demigod is a rare sight in middle game. Price/cooldown/range tweaking would be welcome.

All the wands : honestly, when looking at the trinkets with a bit of gold, I almost get to look at all the orb/stones. Wands may be efficient but on the margin and don't have any kind of spectacular use as warp stone/regen orb/invulenrability orb, etc.

Parasite Egg : No efficient minions -> no use for this. And even so, far far too costly for such specific purpose.

Idols : I certainly expressed my though about minions. The conclusion is clear.

Consommables : no too much to say. Universal gadget may benefit from a slight cast time decrease. I've yet to use many of them, but the balance between combat/big potions works quite smoothly.

Artefacts : Usually the side hammering the other demigods end up spending their killing gold into these. Its difficult to really weight the role of artefact since they end quite often on already high level/well itemized demigod.

Notable exception : Mage slayer. With a quite bearable cost of 8k, a 40% proc chance, and some demigod reaching insane autoattack speed, it becomes a subtetly slayer. Went into a game were both Regulus and UB had these : simply put, ending up not casting at all isn't balanced or fun at all.

Finally, a point of irritating effects in game. If you encounter a vampire/rook/torch or beast combination, you may end up 10+ s stunned/frozen if they decided to focus you. Since there are no counter to this kind of things, even costly ones, you may as well type "GG" once the first stun is landed. Your life isn't anymore in your hands at this point.

Suggestion : add some decreasing return on this kind of effects : rapid stun succession = decreased stun duration. THis kind of mechanic (like the ones used in some fighting game) can prevent unforeseen abuse.

add some costly consommable item designed to break a stun effect, players needs a solution, even a desperate one rather than being forced to not play.

Thank you ^^.

To continue with analysing team games, we tried something new : No Warp Stone Game (and no MageSlayer)

Team 1 : Sedna, Regulus, Beast, Ice Torch

Team 2 (mine) : Sedna, Erebus, Beast, Fire Torch (me)

Both their Sedna and our Erebus took the warping favor item. I took the CD diminution item (for fireball spamming)

Noticeable things :

as predicted the warping Sedna was extremely difficult to kill : healing and evasion made a terrible combination. I didn't fight her much myself, but my teammates were dominated. On overall they played better as a group, and our Sedna and Beast were a little under the average level.

Ranged demigods are more menacing : both Torch and the Regulus took a cautious approach. Retreat, pursue as soon the foe turn back, land fireball/ice thingies, rince, repeat. No warping beast landing on our feet, no suddently escaping ennemies avoiding their earned demise.

Boldness is madness : No warping when tricked by other demigod. Coming behind someone to lay an ambush was a very valid tactic. In map with complex layout like the 4vs4 one, movements are far more decisive.

More predictable fights : without warp, no way to escape the logic of number. Higher dps were a key, stun/silence/healing were especially decisive. People have to plan more carefully their approach. Early escape was still possible, so long as no snaring effect was active.

Conclusion : The battles were less chaotic than in warp heavy games. Unfortunately I couldn't appreciate it to full extend as our team was less cooperative than theirs (and the Sedna player was wonderful). But I enjoyed a pair of things : range get its reward so long as you play it cautiously. Early decisions are more successful (no warping killing blows) And warping demigods (from favor items/skills) are more specific.

So I'd defintively like a less generalistic warp stone, to turn it into an item you'd get only if you want to achieve something specific, at the cost of sacrificing important alternatives.

Try it yourself, to get a new "kind" of game.

And now to something different : the game lengh issue.

Okay, some feedback player insist about, on almost every game.

The game result can be decided early (multi demigod kills/towers advance or such) but is seldom ended at this point. And the show goes on and goes on quite a bit, since end game items/reinforcements are almost needed to deal the final blow (at least in conquest). And we lack a surrender feature !

Suggestion : add a surrender command in menu. When you use it, its told to every player but you stay IG. As soon as all the players in one team surrender, game end, favor point sharing and we go to something else. Nowadays, people don't want to leave, because of favor point loss, and the AI can't do the job for them.

Great post.

And yes, Warpstone should be removed. It makes a much better game without it.

Me too, i agree with most of it.

this item is nice BUT makes balance more difficult, and removes certain base weaknesses of some demigods like rook with warpstone= slow speed doesnt matter. I believe games will be better and more balanced without warpstone

I think we'll stick with no warpstone games from now on, because as most people agree, they

* play more as intended

* revolve less around super stun/burst combo and give speed buff/debuff more weight.

* let players take better playing habits

Moreover, if warpstone is to be nerfed/removed, it's never too soon to learn to play without such a joker.

Is there something specific you would want us to test throughout our next game sessions ?

Minions Trial :

So I tested a game against a single AI to check up minion efficiency. Played Erebus with following template

Bite (2), Mist (2), Bats (2), minions (4), covent (4) + ultimate minion skill (1) + morale (5)

Items were haulberk of life + feral gloves and gladiator glvoes + crown and many citadel upgrades.

AI was Regulus with focus on Fury and mines.

Conclusion : the minions just suck, plainly and definitively.

They were decent against tower at the end of the game, it would mean they could bring down a tower almost without help (but badly damaged) if they were enough at start. They were a bit helpful against reinforcements (mist was a serious backup)

They playes no role at all against the demigod. Even with a cooperative target (and AI Regulus was quite one) who stood still most of the time, I was appaled to see the damage they could dish, I should say the lack thereof. He "may" have had a good armor, but you can't expect demigod to go easy on you.

Should he move, they wouldn't hurt him at all. Had he been somewhat hurt by the minions, mine laying could save him until the very last levels.

You can go on minions template if you want to be a decent siege demigod toward the end of the game... if your team can afford a gentle harmless partner until then, that is...

Okay, so full minion build is useless. What of  partial minion build ? You can afford 3 skill points to get your little army but there no real thing to expect from them, but reinforcements counter/foil. Something you wouldn't need nor want in competitive games.

Minion mechanic definitively needs some heavy rethinking.Objectives should be :

->set minion branchs as a different but equally efficient build than normal skill templates for generals

->give minion use some tactical depth, to make them both enjoyable to use or counter.

->not let Generals be the support version of assassins.

Minion shouldn't be just secondary dps source : this is something only a little less boring than autoattack, and difficult to balance. To avoid making uber powerful minions, they need to be more reliable, quicker than general, able to hit on the move (the way the UB do against a desperate retreating demigod. And they need side effects to further differentiate them between generals.