The citadel upgrade thread. » Forum Post by Tenk51

I agree with that advice.

Another thing that should be said is once you've become comfortable with the item progression for your favorite demigod, please please PLEASE get familiar with budgeting your gold between those and the cit. Seriously. I've played far too many game so far where I find I'm the only one upgrading our universal base of operations.

In one instance, we loose a guy to the connection drop and are left with a bot. My only remaining team mate just bought the game and this is his first try. The entire enemy team is still completely intact. Boy did I feel we had already lost. Turns out I was able to kill a few of the enemy gods and earn myself a nice amount of booty. My team mate on the other hand ended the game at 0/12, so I didn't feel AS bad that I was pumping all my gear money into the cit to keep our heads above water. Long story short, I ended the game with no gear and we still won completely on cit upgrades (and luck/skill. which ever.).

Oh yeah, and based on some of the research people were doing today - it looks like it's also a really good idea to buy the first gold increase asap.

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Agreed on both points: With citadel upgrades, I generally go STRAIGHT for the tower health and splash damage upgrades as soon as possible, as well as the (first) mint. Where additional creeps are concerned, I generally won't upgrade those until either the enemy gets to angels or catapaults, or until their creep waves start getting uncomfortably close (I like to avoid giving that free extra xp). If a game stretches on, though, and players reach the upper levels, fielding giants before the enemy can make the difference and won't grant any free xp (since there's no more xp to gain at that point =P)

Upgrading creep armor and attack is nice if you're finding yourself with the upper hand in kill money, as it makes the enemy work a little harder to push but yields no additional xp, but is much more useful on larger maps where some lanes are left to fend for themselves. Also, if it can be picked up early enough, the XP upgrades can be a nice investment. Generally speaking I avoid the death penalty reduction upgrade, as I feel the money is better spent increasing survivability and lethality

And that's my extroardinarily unscientific analysis =D

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^^^

What he said. /thread

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I agree in what you guys say, but let me just correct you in something, about the splash damage and the tower health upgrade, in the prision map, those are mainly useless, since you spend must of your time fighting in the center and normally creeps dont reach the outer towers.

I just wanted to add something for the map i play the most.

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The currency upgrades are really useful, allows you to get those highler level items a whole lot quicker, at the cost of not having some low level item or other. Getting priests out asap is also pretty useful.

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I agree completely, someone needs to immediately or almost immediately buy the health/repair upgrade. If you don't purchase it they slowly chip away at your outer towers. If you do purchase it, they stay healthy and standing much longer.

The first exp upgrade is another big one. +10% from the start of the game adds up.

The first gold upgrade is also great, but a bit pricey and available a little later. The later gold upgrades aren't such good deals.

I find creep armor and attack aren't that important early game, they make a minimal difference. The armor upgrades are mainly so your priests are tougher when you buy them and the attack upgrades are big for the catapulasauri. This seems to be the spot to skimp early game though (and then start ramping up when you are getting ready to put better units on the field.)

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The game is getting boring because its always the same in conquest mode. Who upgrades the citadell faster wins. Its so unambitious, change the strength and number of creeps please. And reduce the amout of money earned by DG kills.

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Reduce the amount of money earned by DG kills? This wouldn't even be an issue if you or your teammates were dying less. As it is killing a well played Demigod is difficult, and should be rewarded well I think.

But as for the actual topic, personally I think a lot of the Citadel upgrades need to be more substantial to further encourage teams to contribute to the greater good of the team.

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Quoting MrPipe,

reply 7

The game is getting boring because its always the same in conquest mode. Who upgrades the citadell faster wins. Its so unambitious, change the strength and number of creeps please. And reduce the amout of money earned by DG kills.

That is pretty counter intuitive. If you lower gold from DG kills, it is even more worthwhile to spend your gold on citadel upgrades as upgrading your demigod will not get you a sizable bonus (IE: a good chunk of gold from killing a DG).

How would you like the strength and number of creeps changed? How would this impact your issues?

I would also like to point out that its not who upgrades the citadel faster, but who gets the right upgrades at the right time first. Upgrading "faster" is a great way to feed xp to the enemy and waste your gold.

I have yet to play a demigod who can not wipe out an entire wave pretty damn quickly. If you dont spend your money on your citadel, your demigod should be more then powerful enough to wipe out creep waves with ease as well as get a few DG kills. If youve been selfish with your money and you are still lagging behind the problem is not the game, the problem is you.

So, while Catapulsauri and Giants do get you closer to winning then any other upgrade, getting to it first wont necessarily win you the game. More imporantly, in order to get your warscore to a point where you can purchase those upgrades means you must hold enough flags for long enough.

To take that one step further, when you say "whoever gets the citadel upgrades first" what you are actually saying is whoever gets their warscore up to that point first. Of course, by that what you are really saying is whoever has controlled the most flags for longer. As we all know, what controls flags? POWERFUL DEMIGODS. Harass or kill enemy demigods away from flags to keep their war score low. If you can do this your wave size will increase, will be more powerful and your static defenses will also be upgraded.

My point being, anyone who thinks the game is about "rushing tfor the citadel upgrades" is more at fault for losing then ny strategy the other team was using. The game is about flag domination. If you do it, you will win. If you dont, your oponents will.

As to the Original Post. I must agree, the defensive upgrade is incredibly useful. Losing your towers is the first step towrds losing the game as you have nowhere safe to run to nearby which makes it harder to hold flags and escape persuing demigods. The offensive upgrade I find can be left for a little on most maps.

The mint upgrade is incredibly important. I had a game last night where I purchased the mint upgrade 4 minutes into the game. The game lasted 30 minutes (I believe my teamates were noobs, no idea what to buy and what not). If it werent for the 18720 gold we received as a team from the mint over the course of the game, who knows what would have happened.

As to the offensive and defensive upgrades, I normally leave these untill one of 3 things happen:

1: We are pushing into the enemy base.

2: we have just purchased catapulsauri.

3: My oponents are stacked with AOE damage.

The first 2 are self explanatory. The last I will explain. If your oponents have a large arsenal of AoE damage, they can wipe out your creep waves very quickly. Not only does this give them gold and xp but it pushes towards your citadel. It also allows your oponent to easily run in and take out an encroaching horde of your creep when you finally get it to their base. By giving your creep waves the upgraded health bonus, you can quite easily get to the point where the amount of effort (mana/damage) the AoE'rs need to put out to anihilate the wave becomes too high. This gives those extra needed seconds for your next wave to arrive at the location or for a demigod to come help.

On maps with large distances between the citadels the health upgrade becomes even more important. With more health your new waves will be able to catch up to the prior waves when they are stuck fighting towers demigods and the oponents wave. I am sure you have all seen it happen, you come upon a wave and for some unknown reason, there is 15 priests with it. This is a direct effect of the health upgrade. A new wave came upon a prior wave before the defenses of your oponent were able to fully kill the first wave. Your minos run in and in fine form the towers/creeps attack them as the closest units before moving on. This lets your archers, clerics (and later catapulsauri) build up before getting to the enemy base.

As to the offensive upgrade, I usually get the first level of it my first time back at the crystal. Normally around level 5. It is very useful if you are fighting a general who went with minions as the AoE damage will kill them much faster as well as any reinforcements that come along. Out of all the upgrades I spoke about though, this one is generally the least important unless you are playing with a small amount of players on a large map. Then your towers will need both the regen and the AoE in order to stop creep waves dead.

Ok, thats enough for now. Hope everyone pulled something useful from that wall of text.

Cheers,

Chaosbrynn

+1

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From games I have played, games are won and lost based on warscore. To get warscore, you have to capture flags. To capture and keep flags you have to be able to survive against and kill other demigods by having enough health, armor and mana without returning to base once a minute or after every single fight. Therefore you have to buy items for yourself.

I got in this habbit of actually spending too much money on base upgrades and being too selfless and not buy myself enough items and would lose some matches I shouldn't have. Sure our base was powerful, and our units were strong, but when I would go out in the field and fight another demigod and they would destroy me and come away unscratched, they would control the flags on the map and be war rank 10 while I'm still stuck at 7. You have to control the map more than your opponent.

So yep, there's such thing as being too selfless, and such thing as being too selfish, and you have to find the happy medium between the two.

There's alot of strategy that goes into buying base upgrades vs. personal items. When you have your priests, angels, and catapults rolling through, and you're stuck at war rank 8 and your opponent is war rank 10 and gets giants and you have no way to counter, it's over.

Point being, warscore is more important than upgrades you have bought so far based on my experiences. That is, if you want to actually win the game.

EDIT: chaosbrynn in the post above me basically said the same thing I did, I just didn't read it before I posted. But that confirms my thoughts

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Quoting MrPipe,

reply 7

The game is getting boring because its always the same in conquest mode. Who upgrades the citadell faster wins. Its so unambitious, change the strength and number of creeps please. And reduce the amout of money earned by DG kills.

I thought about ranting, but then I realized he probably won't read this thread again and has moved on to other threads to spread his horrible ideas.

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Quoting n3crosys,

reply 11

Quoting MrPipe, reply 7The game is getting boring because its always the same in conquest mode. Who upgrades the citadell faster wins. Its so unambitious, change the strength and number of creeps please. And reduce the amout of money earned by DG kills.

I thought about ranting, but then I realized he probably won't read this thread again and has moved on to other threads to spread his horrible ideas.

ORLY ? Clever guy :>

I only posted my observations in this random team games, where only 1-2 players know what to do. Lots of them running around and get pierced by towers:>

I should explain my thoughts more in detail: In my view to win this game with hundreds of creeps especially giants is boring. I played SC, WC3 and DotA before. Where you got a handful of creeps(WC3) with useful abbilities and not loads of dumb zombies. I love small armys and strong heroes, in this case demigods, where a game is decided by good teamplay. And not who sits on his flags and waiting for strong creeps.

I know warscore bla bla bla. But when your team failes the first half of a game, there is only a little chance to turn the tide. That makes the game boring for me.

And n3crosys put your flames somewhere else. Maybe you are missing a rattle to play ?!

Anyway you wil continue to blame. So have fun. I've got sth better to do.

EDIT: Quote from fatalend:

There's alot of strategy that goes into buying base upgrades vs. personal items. When you have your priests, angels, and catapults rolling through, and you're stuck at war rank 8 and your opponent is war rank 10 and gets giants and you have no way to counter, it's over.

<----- excatly this makes me upset!

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I need to point out that you've said "your team fails for the first half of the game". In other words, playing poorly for a substantial portion of the match puts you in a difficult position to win. You don't like this, and it's not the fault of the players, but the game design.

Please allow me to quote the internet when I say:

lol wut?

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Maybe my bad english is the reason but I want to point out sth different. I mean a weaker beginning not a poor! Do you ever played another RTS ? You can win, although you make mistakes in a part of the game. When a whole game is decided at the start it is BORING! I don't complain about difficult situations, i complain about "ZOMG we got giants 3 minutes earlier and pwn your ass!!!"

You still don't get my point.

For me the solution is LIMITED balancing, and not cutting off this part of the game.

And everyone who says this game is balanced should knock his head against a wall and repeat if neccessary.

I'm far from blaming the game - besides the poor connection system and no arranged team pantheon - ,the game ist out for a weak, i'll stay optimistic that GPG/Stardock will improve the gaming experience which is directly connected with subtile balancing.

Let me quote the internet too:

OMFG

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Quoting MrPipe,

reply 14

Maybe my bad english is the reason but I want to point out sth different. I mean a weaker beginning not a poor! Do you ever played another RTS ? You can win, although you make mistakes in a part of the game. When a whole game is decided at the start it is BORING! I don't complain about difficult situations, i complain about "ZOMG we got giants 3 minutes earlier and pwn your ass!!!"

You still don't get my point.

For me the solution is LIMITED balancing, and not cutting off this part of the game.

And everyone who says this game is balanced should knock his head against a wall and repeat if neccessary.

I'm far from blaming the game - besides the poor connection system and no arranged team pantheon - ,the game ist out for a weak, i'll stay optimistic that GPG/Stardock will improve the gaming experience which is directly connected with subtile balancing.

Let me quote the internet too:

OMFG

Im going to guess that this must be a language barrier problem. Getting giants is a great way to win the game, its definately one of the easier ways to do it. But seriously, your complaints arent about the game, its about your teammates. I had a game last night where an older person was teaching their younger brother to play the game. Needless to say the 14 year old kid who had never played was absolutely awful. Fed the enemies, lost flgs, the whole deal. However, 15 minutes in, I complained and the older brother took over. We were VERY far behind.We sallied up though, farmed their giant creep waves (You should never have problems with creep waves once your into the game) and managed to turn it around, we didnt even use giants. We just captured their portals, killed the DG's and knocked down the citadel ourselves. It CAN be done.

Also, you mentioned SC, Dota and WC3. Ive played all 3 as well. Are you trying to tell me that in Dota, having a bad start (stupid allies feeding enemies, staying in town, and any number of other things that can lead to a loss) doesnt directly lead to your team losing? Are you mad? Compared to Dota this game is incredibly forgiving. You dont need to play perfect, you dont need exceptional micro, all you need to do is play the game as it is presented to you and not do it badly. There is no crazy learning curve (knowing what items to buy so you can combine them later on, last hitting, denying) that needs to be mastered, as opposed to Dota. Lets take SC as an example. You and your 2 enemies expand as quickly as possible, like you are supposed to. Your ally, sits in his base and turtles. Aside from starting resources at the base, the rest of the maps resources get split 2/3 for them, 1/3 for you. Whos going to win? Do you even have a chance? Not unless your oponents are idiots, make huge mistakes or quite the game.

Point being, your a scrub. Possibly a troll, not sure about that one. Demigod is more forgiving of a bad early game then all 3 games you listed. On top of that, EVERY game in existence gives better odds to the team that plays better throughout the match. Thats how its supopsed to be. Should you have just as much chaqnce of winning a 30 minute game if for 20 minutes of it you sucked it up like no tomorrow? Hell no.

Also, only about 2 out of 5 games I play get to Catapults and only 1 in 5 gets to giants. If every game you play gets to giants, Id imagine that, well, its probably your fault.

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I disagree that the game is decided in the beggining. I've played several matches where one team seems to be the clear cut winner, but the enemy all of a sudden comes from behind and starts pushing you back. However, I will say that there is a point at which there is no return, and that point does happen fairly fast. while in games sc, and wcIII it is posible to turn the tides through some clever strategy, its much less so in demigod. after theyve destroyed your first line of towers and have angels out on the field, there really isnt anything you can do to turn the tides.

anyways, this is all getting a little off topic, so I have new citadel related advice.

Dont buy reinforcment damage/health upgrades early game

If you do, your troops will push past the enemies, and run right up to that first wave of towers, and die. If your oponents have upgraded health/repair, this isnt helping anyone. except that is, for the enemy demigods waiting at the towers to pick off your reinforcments for easy experience. Now you have a situation where your reinforcments are being delivered to your enemy for easy xp, and if you want to level up on their reinforcments, you need to move out into the field, close to your enemies towers, which is a nightmare early game. Save increased reinforcment stats for once youhave catapults and giants, before then its just a waste of gold at best.

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Quoting Tenk51,

reply 16

Dont buy reinforcment damage/health upgrades early game

If you do, your troops will push past the enemies, and run right up to that first wave of towers, and die. If your oponents have upgraded health/repair, this isnt helping anyone. except that is, for the enemy demigods waiting at the towers to pick off your reinforcments for easy experience. Now you have a situation where your reinforcments are being delivered to your enemy for easy xp, and if you want to level up on their reinforcments, you need to move out into the field, close to your enemies towers, which is a nightmare early game. Save increased reinforcment stats for once youhave catapults and giants, before then its just a waste of gold at best.

I agree completely - and, to some extent, i would say the same for the priests. Getting them too soon might be doing you more harm than good if all they will do is feed the enemy with extra xp...

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The only good "early" upgrades are health/repair and "gold income".

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Quoting MrPipe,

reply 18

The only good "early" upgrades are health/repair and "gold income".

I was going to say exp, but I'm still on the fence about that one.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 19

Quoting MrPipe, reply 18The only good "early" upgrades are health/repair and "gold income".

I was going to say exp, but I'm still on the fence about that one.

It depends... I think the others support your team better. 10% is not that much in the first minutes of the game. But i have to figure it out more in detail.

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Quoting MrPipe,

reply 12

EDIT: Quote from fatalend:

There's alot of strategy that goes into buying base upgrades vs. personal items. When you have your priests, angels, and catapults rolling through, and you're stuck at war rank 8 and your opponent is war rank 10 and gets giants and you have no way to counter, it's over.

<----- excatly this makes me upset!

Like other people already stated this is not true. I've had enough game were the tide of the battle was still changed if one team was War rank 10 and the other was still at 6+-. Its all teammate dependend. Sure it gets harder if your opponent bought giants but its not the final blow.

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2MrPipe: Man, Demigod is a game about map control. If you fail, than you lose nearly 100%. I personally don't think about Giants as good creeps. Yes, they are fat, but usless if you are not Regul. They can't hurt heroes coz they still suck at DD(if you are not playing on extra powerful creeps...), they can't do anything alone(coz 1 AoE spell and all other than giants is wiped. And what will those BSF do?). I'm trying to say that creeps is nothing without heroes. And if your hero can be killed with 5-6 blows, it doesn't matter if you have giants and your enemy only catapults. You dead and then your creep army crushed in seconds... (But vampire can teleport... but while you go back and to the line... read above.)

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Quoting Adepht,

reply 22

I personally don't think about Giants as good creeps. Yes, they are fat, but usless if you are not Regul. They can't hurt heroes coz they still suck at DD(if you are not playing on extra powerful creeps...), they can't do anything alone(coz 1 AoE spell and all other than giants is wiped. And what will those BSF do?). I'm trying to say that creeps is nothing without heroes.

While i agree, i also think a wave or 2 of creeps heading to the enemy citadel is a great "distraction" for our team to regain control of the map, or somewhat "vital" portions of it (flags, chokepoints, etc).

In many maps, you simply CAN'T ignore a wave of giants/catas pushing close to your citadel.

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I tend to agree that games are usually won and lost on war score. I just finished a match where my team died 53 times in total (I only had 5 of those deaths), and the enemy team died a mere 19 times (of which 9 were my kills). We won because we had higher war score and just swamped them with spawns. They couldn't leave their citadel because their spawns were way weaker than our's, so we just kept total map control. As well, they were all level 20 so they couldn't even level up any more, while we were rapidly catching up in experience.

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Dont buy reinforcment damage/health upgrades early game

If you do, your troops will push past the enemies, and run right up to that first wave of towers, and die. If your oponents have upgraded health/repair, this isnt helping anyone. except that is, for the enemy demigods waiting at the towers to pick off your reinforcments for easy experience. Now you have a situation where your reinforcments are being delivered to your enemy for easy xp, and if you want to level up on their reinforcments, you need to move out into the field, close to your enemies towers, which is a nightmare early game. Save increased reinforcment stats for once youhave catapults and giants, before then its just a waste of gold at best.

I completely disagree with you reasons. While I agree that buying such an upgrade early is a waste of money (it would be better put towards equipment or currency - which makes a much bigger difference early game anyways), as some of the previous posts point out flag control is what wins games. Having your creeps push give you much better map control. Chances are the enemy is going to be getting the xp for these creeps anyways, and unlike buying priests it doesn't actually give them more xp. As far as bad ideas go, you could do worse than upgrading your creeps.

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