LORD-ORION

Join Date 04/2009

+55

Day 0 Changes

Hehe, trip down memory lane: forgot about this epicness... I should have used some of this as a base for CrazyTown changes (heh, that's kind of sad I didn't actually, and funny that some stuff ended up pretty close)

You can see how some things were over/under nerfed... look at TB, he lost 55% of shatter damage. (pout)

ITEMS
- Heaven's Wrath:
  - Cooldown reduced from 60 to 45 seconds
  - Damage increased from 200 to 250
  - Area of Effect increased from 5 to 7
- Blade of the Serpent:
  - Returns 75% of damage instead of 50%
  - Damage increased from 10 to 25
  - Mana increased from 210 to
- Cloak of Night:
  - Cooldown increased from 30 to 60 seconds
  - Damage reduced from 200 to 100
- Wyrmskin Handguards:
  - Chance to proc reduced from 20% to 15%
  - Damage inflicted reduced from 100 to 60
  - Movement and Attack slow reduced from 25 to 15
- Furious Blade:
  - Health reduced from 250 to 200
  - Rate of Fire from proc reduced from +50% to +30%
- Armor of Vengeance:
  - Damage reflected increased from 25 to 35
- Staff of Renewal:
  - Is now a passive item that gives 20% off cooldowns.
  - Cost increased from 400 to 600.
- Bloodstone Ring:
  - Lifesteal reduced from 5 to 3.
- Mageslayer:
  - Lifesteal reduced from 15 to 12%
- Ashkandor:
  - Lifesteal reduced from 15 to 12%
- Warpstone:
  - Cooldown increased from 30 to 45 seconds
  - Cost increased from 3500 to 5500 gold
  - Range reduced from 20 to 15 yards
- Parasite Egg:
  - Cost increased from 4500 to 5000.
- Summoning Idols:
  - Cost of all Summoning Idols reduced
  - Mana cost of Summoning Idols reduced
  - Cooldown of Summoning Idols reduced from 45 to 30 seconds
  - Casting Time of Sumoning Idols reduced from 1 to 0.5 seconds
DEMIGOD STATS
- Rook
  - Base Health reduced from 1989 to 1900
  - Health per level decreased from 194 to 150.
  - Base Armor reduced from 440 to 240
  - Hammer Slam damage reduced from 600/1100/1600/2100 to 500/900/1300/1700
  - Boulder Roll stun reduced from 2/3/4 to 1.5/2/2.5
- Oak
  - Damage per level increased from 7.5 to 8.2
  - Base damage increased from 147 to 160
  - Penitence Damage inceased from 75/150/275/300 to 200/400/600/800
  - Penitence Move and Damage multpliers decreased from 10/15/20/25 to 7/10/13/16
  - Surge of Faith radius of affect increased from 10 to 15 yards
  - Surge of Faith cooldown reduced from 15 to 10 seconds
  - Surge of Faith buff duration reduced from 10 to 7 seconds
- Sedna
  - Health per level increased from 110 to 115
  - Damage per level increased from 7 to 10
  - Pounce damage increased from 350/550/750/1150 to 400/600/800/1000
  - Horn of the Yeti cooldown reduced from 20 to 7 seconds
  - Heal cooldown reduced from 12 to 7 seconds
  - Magnificent Presence Cooldown increased from 5/10/15 to 7/12/17
  - Healing Wind health regeneration increased from 10/20 to 12/24
  - Silence radius of affect increased from 10 to 15 yards
  - Silence energy cost increased from 600/775/950 to 800/900/1000
  - Silence duration changed from 2/4/6 to 3/4/5
- Erebus
  - Health per level increased from 137 to 145
  - Armor per level increased from 25 to 35
  - Damage per level increased from 7.125 to 8.9
  - Now moves 10% faster
  - Mist form drains 125 mana per second at all levels. Damage inflicted per level increased by 25.
  - Bite damage increased from 200/350/500/650 to 300/500/700/900
  - Bite debuff increased from 2 to 3 seconds
  - Mass Charm creep stun increased from 3/4/6/8 to 3/5/7/9
  - Mass Charm Demigod stun increased from 1/1.5/2/2 to 1/1.5/2/3
- Queen of Thorns
  - Armor per level increased from 18 to 25
  - Damage per level increased from 7.5 to 9
  - Spike Wave and Ground Spikes now appropriately show as debuffs
  - Bramble Shield cooldown reduced from 15 to 7 seconds
  - Bramble Shield duration reduced from 60 to 30 seconds
  - Bramble Shield absorption increased from 600/800/1000/1200 to 700/950/1200/1450
  - Goddess of Thorns damage reduction duration increased from 5 to 10 seconds
  - Goddess of Thorns shield duration increased from 10 to 20 seconds and damage increased from 25 to 35
  - Mulch Shambler mana cost reduced from 350 to 250
  - Mulch Shambler cooldown reduced from 10 to 7 seconds
  - Summon Shambler cast time reduced from 1 to 0.5 seconds
  - Summon Shambler cooldown reduced from 7 to 5 seconds
- Torchbearer
  - Circle of Fire's radius increased to 10 for all levels, this makes a marked difference at low levels
  - Shatter damage reduced from 150/300/450/600 to 100/175/250/325
- Regulus
  - Mine range increased from 10 to 15 yards
- Unclean Beast
  - Inner Beast Rate of Fire and Movement speeds decreased from 5/10/15 to 3/7/10
  - Venom Spit damage of time component's damage increased
  - Venom Spit mana cost increased from 450/575/700/825 to 500/650/800950
  - Venom Spit cooldown reduced from 10 to 7 seconds
  - Progression of damage reduced, resulting in less DPS as the Beast levels up

They left out some stuff (I checked the original file before posting this)

Spike Wave's hit
Snare reduced by 50% at all levels
30,40,50
vs
15,20,25

Maim's Snare / Duration Increase
10,15,20% @ 1.5 seconds
vs
5,7,10 @ 3

Poison Arrows (cut in 1/2)
20% snare at 30% proc
vs
10% at 15%

Clarify the Increase to Venom Spit (Seriously, WTF??!?!?! Someone actually thought this needed a buff, even back then people were complaining UB was OP)
Old Damage
40,70,100,130 / tick
vs
45,80,115,150 / tick

-Cooldown was decreased from 10 to 7 (this is just neurotic, it is a 10 second effect! Who the f**K thought this was a good idea!!!!!)

-But they did raise the mana cost
500, 650, 800,950
vs
450,575,700,825

Bestial Wrath duration was decreased
10,10,10,20
5,5,5,10

Note: Some things have been further changed in patches (LE's stun duration is up, bite was renerfed) but alot of things are still the same.

What went too far?
Opinions?

My thoughts
You can see alot of unused items were hit (some were hit VERY hard, look at warpstone), and some of them wouldn't be used even with the pre day0 values from what we know now (I am looking at you parasite egg hehe)

I kind of like the spread on Pounce, considering how pounce scales now and alot builds don't bother with II,III or IV
400 + 200 per level
vs
350,200,200,400 (Level IV should probably be +350 with this scale)

Shatter was hit way too hard.

How epic would Oak be right now with that damage on Pen? Probably got buffed too high. Should probably be 625 @ level IV like Gspike.

demigod

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

It was a different meta as well. Speed stacking and all about mobility.

Things like Heart of Life made Blood much weaker since if you were mobile (CoN, Warpstone) you could escape and be back to full health in no time.

Look at UB and Spit. He had a 5/10/15 speed progression, which was huge in that meta, and a DoT Spit.

CoN would be pretty useful if it was every 30 seconds...

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So Erebus used to be the best general?

Who the hell was abusing Bloodstone Ring?

GPG actually put effort into balancing this game at one point?

So Erebus used to be the best assassin?

On a serious not, its a bummer to see the nerfed items that would have almost maybe been useful in the later meta had they not been nerfed.

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CoN would be pretty useful if it was every 30 seconds...

Nah. It's useful as it is. At 30 sec cooldown and 200 AoE dmg it was clearly OP. A good, proportional nerf, I say.

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Parasite Egg:

Cost increased from 4500 to 5000.

As I remember, now it costs 3000 and can be used in autoatack damage builds for example.

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As I remember, now it costs 3000

Yah, those changes are beta->1.0.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

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I find it difficult to judge all this changes so I would only highlight some:

Items

The changes to Wyrmskin Handguards are mybe ok to be in line with the other on proc weapon stuff but if they had not nerfed Wyrmskin Handguards but enhanced the other, maybe there would be some more builds around that sort of items.

Furious Blade feels overnerfed to me. If the attack speed decreasement to 30% is ok, more life should had been added.

Armor of Vengeance is still not worth the gold due to diminishing returns for armor and a too small damage return. Should be at the same prize lvl as Nimoth Chest Armor I think, or get enhanced stats.

Bloodstone Ring was nerfed to much. They nerfed all lifesteal in the game for some reason, but Bloodstone Ring was hitten too hard to be useful at all. I guess, it should had never been nerfed.

Warpstone may be a very good item but it they should have left it with just nerfing the stats but leave it at the same prize lvl like Orb of Defiance, so that I can make a decision there. I can judge if the nerf to the stats are good or if they should be even higher (Higher cooldown would be the only option here, I think).

Parasite Egg was even raised in prize... My opion is that even now it is too expensive (3000 gold) or have too low stats.

I like the changes to the Idols but that may be because I like to play minion builds... Damn, I often think it's all to expensive! So, maybe it's ok then. ^^

Heroes

Movement speed is a very important aspect for any DG. Rooks base speed of 5.4 is ok, I guess, because he can still be played with good results. But I don't like the changes to Erebus and Unclean Beast. Their base movement speed should be in line with the other DGs. Skills can be used to alter that speed for dominace. So they should have left Inclean Beasts Inner Beast skill like it was and reduce it's base speed to 6.0. Still Deseased Claws could help for the chase if the player invests points in it (and a little increase like having skill Lvl 2 and 3 have a slowdown of 10/15 %). It's a bad idea to let a strong melee fighter, like UB, have the highest speed ingame, imo.

They should have left the cooldown for Horn of the Yeti like it was but decrease the mana cost, I think. Because if you try to play with them you easily run into mana problems.

The reduces damage of Shatter is ok I think. If it was to much is difficult for me to judge, but I liked Crazytown's solution to cunsume Deep Freeze for extra damage.

Maim was nerfed to much, I think. 5% at the start are ok but it should scale like 5%/10%/15% to be useful.

It really seems like they messed something up with Venom Spit. But maybe they thought increasing the cost a bit is legetimating it? Well, can just guess.

QoT has her own thread so I skip it here.

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Why didn't they remove the useless crap! There's so many items that don't get used. Ditch them IMHO! Warlord's punisher FTW.

The best thing for DG now would be to release it free to play, put banner ads in the lobby and on game load screens for revenue, and for the love of demigod, PLEASE make at least the uberfix mod a game update.

I think beast spit is a no worry. If you consider that you can have sed heals, oak shield, and oc brainstorm(with uberfix only) to remove them. Beast can be mana hungry with spits, and if you're gonna wear chain spits you better be bringing some skillful tricks to the party and with beasts speed, well he's gotta be up close and personal before doing any killing damage. All others have some ranged attacks and slows to counter this.

Yes erebus was once (especially with the horn exploit) the most exploited character. I remember games named "no ereb no UB"

One exploit they never fixed was the cheat still used frequently in crucible. People using warpstone, oculus jump and batswarm to bridge the gap between gold flag and health crystal. I don't know what fun anyone has winning a game by doing this, you may as well have invunerability and sit back and never die. I will never play a game on this rediculous map (even the strategical imbalance on this map doesn't bother me too much - that is whoever gets those flags first can easily hold them if they know what their doing).

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Quoting Running_Lukas,

reply 8

I think this is just another way to play this map. Warping there is not a cheat in any way, because enemies could also do that. Yes, some demigods have problems in doing that and someone like Regulus are very bad on this map, because of no Cloak or skill to warp. If warpstone was ~1k, then maybe it would be fine. Otherwise this map is just pathetically long match, because creep waves barely push anything. It's not so difficult to protect your own portal flag by locking and keeping portal to teleport back if needed. On this map matches are often coming to the artifact stage, so even with this price, warpstone is useful. And if you manage to stay long enough - Cloak of Elfinkind. Just another layer of strategy/gameplay. Not pushing, but mobility and risk to get portals wins there. Try to play against Nastyblade 1v1 and you'll see his Sedna

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Try to play against Nastyblade 1v1 and you'll see his Sedna

He cheats. His Sedna is always 2 levels higher than mine, so there can be no other explanation.

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Quoting Plaguewraith,

reply 7

I find it difficult to judge all this changes so I would only highlight some:

Armor of Vengeance is still not worth the gold due to diminishing returns for armor and a too small damage return. Should be at the same prize lvl as Nimoth Chest Armor I think, or get enhanced stats.

Quoting Running_Lukas,

reply 8

There's so many items that don't get used. Ditch them IMHO! Warlord's punisher FTW.

These items could be more useful if minion and creeps were actually a threat in the middle of the game.

My view is that they have a double whammy against them, they are underpowered items in a meta game that does not require them.

eg: If new army units and their upgrades actually came out at their proper WRs, these kind of anti-minion / creep items have more potential for use.

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Quoting Darkliath,

reply 9

Quoting Running_Lukas, reply 8One exploit they never fixed was the cheat still used frequently in crucible. People using warpstone, oculus jump and batswarm to bridge the gap between gold flag and health crystal. I don't know what fun anyone has winning a game by doing this, you may as well have invunerability and sit back and never die. I will never play a game on this rediculous map (even the strategical imbalance on this map doesn't bother me too much - that is whoever gets those flags first can easily hold them if they know what their doing).

I think this is just another way to play this map. Warping there is not a cheat in any way, because enemies could also do that. Yes, some demigods have problems in doing that and someone like Regulus are very bad on this map, because of no Cloak or skill to warp. If warpstone was ~1k, then maybe it would be fine. Otherwise this map is just pathetically long match, because creep waves barely push anything. It's not so difficult to protect your own portal flag by locking and keeping portal to teleport back if needed. On this map matches are often coming to the artifact stage, so even with this price, warpstone is useful. And if you manage to stay long enough - Cloak of Elfinkind. Just another layer of strategy/gameplay. Not pushing, but mobility and risk to get portals wins there. Try to play against Nastyblade 1v1 and you'll see his Sedna

I'm pretty sure they reduced the range to 15 in an attempt to prevent this, there is a very narrow positional window to use warp stone to cross the gap now, where at 20 you can do it from any point around the edge.

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Quoting Plaguewraith,

reply 7

So they should have left Inclean Beasts Inner Beast skill like it was and reduce it's base speed to 6.0.

I agree with this, it does not in any way diminish the speed potential of UB, but instead forces you to make harder choices for your 1st 10 skill points based on what you need.

Tee hee, also "Inclean beast"? Must have been looking at In1's avatar while posting.

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Quoting LORD-ORION,

reply 12

Even if that was done, still Erebus, Oculus and demon assassin could easily get over the gap. But as I said, I think it is fine that such possibility exists on this map (maybe erebus has too long range though).

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wow this is boring

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Quoting visca_el_barca,

reply 15

wow this is boring

Fuck off and die

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Thats more like it

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Quoting OMG__IN1,

reply 10

Try to play against Nastyblade 1v1 and you'll see his Sedna

He cheats. His Sedna is always 2 levels higher than mine, so there can be no other explanation.

Zen loves that guy.

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Zen loves that guy.

I like him, too. He has an original playstyle with both Sed and Reg. Well, I had a post about his Sedna build.

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

you mean the Sedna build that Janook invented and he stole?

/right/

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hey hedge has ever anyone played a general with siege demolisher and bishops, using full minion upgrade skills (the morale pluses) but no actual minions? seems new to me at least.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

cool of you to dig this up. Fun to read. Thx

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Quoting JUSThaveFUN,

reply 21

hey hedge has ever anyone played a general with siege demolisher and bishops, using full minion upgrade skills (the morale pluses) but no actual minions? seems new to me at least.

That's how you had to play QoTs in the olden days.

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Quoting LORD-ORION,

reply 23

Quoting JUSThaveFUN, reply 21hey hedge has ever anyone played a general with siege demolisher and bishops, using full minion upgrade skills (the morale pluses) but no actual minions? seems new to me at least.
That's how you had to play QoTs in the olden days.

well it works great with occulus too !

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

hey hedge has ever anyone played a general with siege demolisher and bishops, using full minion upgrade skills (the morale pluses) but no actual minions? seems new to me at least.

How you play minion Sedna.

Also, ABornExile used to do that although he stopped pretty fast. He also used Blood instead of RoDM for whatever reason. I've seen Rawr do it once as well...

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