No Combine Recipes or Fancy Upgrade Paths - This instead!

nothnx.

I want to stack my stuff and have more variaty. =]

Upgrade paths is cooler.  Cooler = All other arguments.

Your argument has one big flaw: upgrade paths are not cooler

Both is ok. But somehow the Upgrade path gives the feeling of "I've the choice what to do", where buying things is just... buying things.

The smithing thing just feels cooler. But nontheless i wouldnt care a recipe system nor you supposed system. Can live with all three of them.

So long, Aspartem

Exactly.  Cooler. =]

I don't understand your post. The items are already organized with bonuses the way you want them to be.

Allowing you to upgrade items makes them sorted by the stats they give by default... I don't really understand how it makes it any more complicated.

i like innociv's idea better

Innociv's idea is the same mechanic in dota coincidentally.

Innociv's idea and DotA's method are only similiear in one way really,  your items get better.  Innociv's idea is much better and easier to read and grasp than DotA's scheme.

This idea sounds incredibly boring. It doesn't sound like there's room for any items with special effects other than the artifacts. Items that are just upgraded versions of older items would get boring extremely fast. Would you rather have your gloves give a flat extra % attack speed by upgrading them, or be able to make them upgrade to have an activated ability of increasing attack speed temporarily, or something like that?

This idea is not only boring compared to innociv's, innociv's will result in more interesting gameplay. Why? Because in this way, once you've decided on your items, the only progression in items is purchasing upgrades. There's no choice, no ability to emphasize one aspect over another, and negligable flexibilty. Even the current implementation is more flexible because in that you're encouraged to sell your items. In this way, you've invested heavily into upgrading the item. Finally, this idea could be implemented far more easily by simply sorting the items into groups by effect and stacking upgrades. It's not really a simplification of the current item system, something that offers an excellent opportunity to add a lot of depth without overwhelming complexity.

What?  Are you talking about my post?  Because bonuses are pretty random; they are somewhat sorted for a few types but they could be much better.

As I said in the post, the difference between different boots would be the special effects.  If you want your boots to have a special bonus, you buy the ones that have that bonus.  Artifacts just get the really special stuff, like teleporting or high life-steal.  Right now, most items are just upgraded versions of older ones, except you have to sell your current one and get a totally different one instead; with my system you just click the upgrade button.  If you want your gloves to have an activated ability, you buy the gloves that come with that ability.

Umm... just sell the old stuff?  It isn't hard .  If you want to emphasize one aspect, you buy the stuff that has that aspect!  Buy multiple pairs of boots if you want to go super-fast!  You don't invest that heavily when you only have a simple upgrade option and can sell it easily.

I haven't read innociv's lately but really, in effect the only difference is that instead of having a ton of intermediate stages for your items like in his method, mine includes several larger jumps and you can pick what you want to begin with instead of sorting through endless trees of possible upgrades, plus mine is sorted better.  You have just as many choices!

Pfft still trying to argue your inferior idea.  Poor Gnats.

   There is one very key thing about the paths in mine:  It makes you ahve to make a choice between upgrading stats and maybe not getting the "bonus stat" you'd prefer, and makes the balance more interesting.

   The highest increased-attack-speed item you could upgrade might have a fairy useless "bonus stat" for the last upgrade, so you spent all that money on upgrading the IAS item and it might not be worth it spending the money for the bonus stat, so now you're behind in purchasing a different item that has a "bonus stat" that'd benefit your build.
   It adds a lot more depth to what you choose for your build, which to me is really fun.  I love making new builds!

  So yeah, simple upgrade tree like I described is better.
  Key word is simple, just those 2 paths, a 2nd level on each path, and the 3 at the very end that you can only pick based on your first 2 upgrade choices.  Elegantly simple.

Recipes give upgraded items a name and meaning.  In DOTA, you can upgrade Necronimicon and Dagon several times, but it doesn't have the same pzazz as say building towards a Burize. 

Yeah, I know I'm in the minority here.  Innociv really dislikes Dota and its recipes and he's alot louder on these forums then me and many others.  Regardless, I like recipes and what they add to DOTA.  Perhaps its grown to complicated and so its confusing for a new player.  However, there is a very real need for recipes.  The basic advantages are:

1. Free up slots -

There's a limited amount of equipment slots.  Upgrading circumvents this by allowing you to boost those items currently in the slots.  Recipe's allow you to combine multiple slots into 1.

2.  Synergy bonus -

Recipe's encourage a player to taking time to carefully select items that match together well instead of throwing together a hodge podge random mixed items.  This can be seen in other games (not just DOTA).

In WOW, if you collect matching pieces of armor your granted synergy bonus.  This may not be a bad idea for Demigod. Let's say with the current shop layout that there's a set of armor (boots, plate, helm, gloves, ring) that all have the same common name (i.e. Scathis's Suit of Confirmation).  As you collect each piece, you get synergy bonuses (hey its magic, they were meant to be together).    Say you buy the boots first.  Then you get enough money to buy the gloves, which gives you additional bonuses greater then the 2 items alone (2 of 5).  Pick up the helm later, more synergistic bonus (3/5).  Pick up the breast plate (4/5), then finish with the ring (5/5).  Each part is greater then the whole.  Instead of throwing together a bunch of mismatched armor, your going for the whole set with each component complementing the other.  Its not cryptic, it can be done on the fly, you just buy each item that has the same graphic style.  Synergy and coolness.

If you pattern after DOTA, then the entire suit would take 1 slot.  Perhaps an easy progression (to keep slots open for other needed items) may be that the gloves and boots would combine automatically into 1 slot.  The helm and Plate would take 1 slot.  And if you the 2 combo's together with the ring, wala, 1 slot.  The "recipe's" don't even need to cost money or even be visible for purchase.  Once you get two matching items, they combine automatically taking the deep thinking/guessing out of it.  This would also mean that item combination would have to be simpler and items should not cross over into different combo's.

3.  Quickly Identify the threat (this assumes we'll be able to mouse over or select enemies and see what they have equipped, a must in my opinion) -

In DOTA, you can select on visible enemy heroes and quickly assess what they are capable of simply by looking at their items. Recipe's provide a very quick reference of what the heros is capable of.  Without recipe's, there's alot more thinking and alot more mess involved.

For example, the item Buriza-do Kyanon(+75 damage, 2.2X Critical, 20% chance) is made up the the following:

Demon edge: +36 damage, 2600 gp

Crystalis(+35 damage, 1.75X Critical, 10% chance)

Broadsword: +18 damage 1200 gp

Blades of Attack: +9 damage 650 gp

Crystalis Scroll: adds 8 damage and gives 1.75X critical with 10% chance, 500gp

Buriza-do Kyanon Scroll: adds +4 damage, upgrades crit to 2.2X and chance to 20%, 1,000 gp

If there were no recipes your inventory would have 5 items with the following bonuses:

+36 dmg, +18 dmg, +9 dmg, +8 dmg & crit (1.75X 10%), +4 dmg & crit upgrade (2.2X 20%).

Or you could just have each item combine into 1 slot with +75 damage, 2.2X Critical, 20% chance.

As a compromise, maybe if you mouse over a Demigod (or select) instead of seeing his items, you see his base stats (attribute bonuses added in) and his lump bonuses from items.

Example:

Mouse over regulus and his stats appear:

Move Speed: 15 + 5

Attack Speed: 20 + 4

Damage: 130+265

etc etc.

I'm not saying lets replicate DOTA's item/recipes (46 items and 54 recipes).  But lets take the best from it and improve.  Recipes have alot of advantages as long as they are intuitive, simple, and motivating.  Current item builds (or lack of) are pretty vanilla and boring.

Inferior?  Pfft.  People just heard yours first and thought it was ok so they naturally dislike anything else

The final bonus stat thing just doesn't sound that great to me since it sounds like you could just pick an item that increased attack speed but also had a good bonus stat, unless you plan to have like 6 items.

Your tech tree is not simple and is not better .  Mine is much simpler and better

It isn't simpler, but it's still very simple, and it's better

@ Odit, i play dota since the 3.xx versions, which is like 3-4 years ago. But i've to say the recepies are a bane for new players. PERIOD. For players like you and me, they aren't a problem. But for newbies its a pain.

1. Free Slots.

No need, 6 Items, you can upgrade instead of transform it into new ones. You can buy six cheap early game items and upgrade them really simple to keep their use for the mid/late game. Also no chicken needed to buy the 89341963 Parts for the upgrades - and you know, that Dota has a big need of these couriers due to missing slots. Keep in mind, that we got 3 extra slots for consumables so we've 9 slots - Dota got 6.

2. Synergy Bonus

First of all, you cant implement Sets like in WoW, else each hero needs 2-3 Sets only for him - like in WoW each class gets 1-3 Sets for themself in EACH dungeon. Everyone would just buy his set or one set and that it => no depth.

Second, you can give the upgrades also synergys like the recipes, no problem with that. With the upgrade system you also encourage to choose your upgrades wisley - at the same time no cluttered shops with recipes, no extra brain needed to store all combinations plus a good oversight for newbies - if they take + improve innos Photoshop-stuff. Recipes and combinations aren't bad - and they fit dota well. BUT they're not EASY to LEARN. So useless for casualgaming. How many time i saw heros like Razor etc. with Vladimirs Offering or Axe's with Bloodstones etc. and when i asked them why the bought that stuff, they told me, that they're new and didnt know which of the 60 recipes were good etc.

Synergys are not limited to recipes - ergo no argument. The Upgrade system is basicly the same like the recipes, it just cuts out the ingridients, they're replaced by gold.

3. Identify the threat

Yes, that is a strong point in dota, but also a weakness. As a decent player i can tell at lvl 5 what the other guy will have at lvl 11, 16  20 etc. etc. Because i can simply identify everything and can plan countermeasures before he even built the items => to much information. Im also a decent Magic: The Gathering player, and informations are the most important thing in the most games.

Im not sure, if i want to see the items of my opponent in Demigod. Its just to easy to counter alot of playstyles just by knowing they're going for this or going for that. And since we cant see the items yet, this is also no arguement. There is no bonus if its not even implemented.

You said it already: they can be fun if they're motivating + intiuitve.. but they arent. They simply arent. Ok if we start with only a feeeew recipes i'd could be ok at the start. But later on, more n' more stuff will be implemented and we'll have 40 recipes.. and Demigod will get the same problems as Dota right now - nearly no new players who start playing it.

Imo, im against recipes - there are other ways to do it, and simpler ways.

---------

And if you two start a chick fight, i gonna search my "Big Rod of Spanking" and knock both of ya off

If GpG implements such a system, they surely take both ideas into consideration. And change everything like they want to.. and then implement it ^^

So long, Aspartem 

I hate set bonuses like htat.

I like more natural synergies, like guild wars has.

Like the tower of light has with other rook skills.