[CHEESE] List of the Cheesiest Builds/Strats

Here are some builds or strategies I find incredibly frustrating in the current version of Demigod.  This goes beyond "I let Torch Bearer get 17 and now he can nuke me for 3k damage," and it goes beyond "someone farmed up 18k gold and is now critting for quadruple digits."  This is more basic, arguably uncounterable stuff that, while extremely effective and employed by skilled and knowledgable players, is still... unfair.  Cheap.  Cheesy.

 

This is by no means a complete list and as I manage to maintain connections in more multiplayer games, I'm sure I'll see plenty more cheese, and update this post accordingly.  I encourage you to add to the list -- just post and I'll update this OP, assuming your issue matches the requirements above.

 

[GENERAL MECHANICS]

1.)  Maim: Maim (passive or procced snare) is extremely common for how rare escape skills are.  The fact that any sensible build requires a Warpstone either to close distance to a target or to escape a target says that, well, maybe there's too much Maim in this game.  And there is.  And it all stacks.

 

[ITEMS]

1.) Wyrmskin Gauntlents:  You knew this was coming.  I still can't wrap my mind around how an item this powerful costs less than 2k gold, let alone 8k.  DOTA has three item-based sources of Maim/Passive Snare:  Sange, which is expensive and has a chance to proc a weak snare (probably 6-7k in Demigod gold), Sange and Yasha, an upgraded Sange, which aside from other bonuses is very expensive and has a chance to proc a moderate snare (probably 13-15k in Demigod gold), and Eye of Skadi, which is prohibitatively expensive and always procs a moderate snare (probably 20k+ in Demigod gold).

 

[REGULUS]

1.) Baseline Passive Maim:  Yeah, Maim again.  You made it a basic, passive, guarenteed-to-proc-off-any-autoattack skill of the hero which has a longer range than towers.  At this point I shouldn't need to say any more, but the fact it made it into the game at all suggests I might have to.  Giving a ranged hero a guarenteed, zero-manacost, zero-casting time snare for free is absolutely ridiculous.  "Eye of Skadi" in DOTA was coveted by ranged heroes because it could finally solve their problem of keeping their target in range and out of melee.  Skadi was also one of the most expensive items in the game.  Regulus gets it for free with no associated disadvantages.

 

2.) Mines:  Mines as a skill are fine, the problem is, there's not a serious counter to them.  The 50g See-Invisible Ward has such a small range that you've detonated a Mine before you could place a Ward that could even see it.  There's a Favor item that lets you see Mines, but it's unrealistic to expect the valuable Favor slot to be used just to see Mines (maybe if there were more sources of invisibility in the game that item would be worth it, but for now, it's not).

 

[LORD EREBUS]

1.) Perma-Mist:  With a few investments in basic mana regen items, Erebus can stay in Mist form for a very, very long time.  He's totally invulnerable in this form and loses all status ailments when he enters too, on top of doing damage to foes and healing allies that stand in it.

Mist is extremely similar to "Sand Storm," one of the skills of Sand King, a DOTA hero.  Sand Storm, however, does not make the SK invulnerable, it simply makes him invisible.  If you drop ground-targeted spells on the right spot, Sand King can take damage or even be stunned, which stops his channeling of the spell.  If you don't have any of those spells, you can buy See Invisible wards and drop one down when he enters Sand Storm, which lets you see and thus attack him.

Mist has no such counter.

5,751 views 26 replies
Reply #1 Top



Skadi was also one of the most expensive items in the game.  Regulus gets it for free with no associated disadvantages.

Seems a bit unfair when put in a context like that doesnt it?  I agree with the maiming and wyrmskin gauntlets 100%. 

The perma-mist is interesting because it does not really become effect until late game whereas sand king it was damn effective by the time you reach level 5 and sandstorm is level 3 doing some sick damage to creeps.  It would be nice to have something like a aoe or stun bring him out of mist form but I guess we will have to wait and see how often this is used online by players.

Regulus is just fun to play even if he is overpowered in high player games (3v3, 5v5).  I mean who doesnt like playing techies or sniper in dota :D

Reply #2 Top

Regarding perma-mist, I fully understand the cheesiness of it, though as it stands I feel like it's really Erebus's only useful ability, and I don't think it's really overpowered except in the fact that it can last basically forever.  I think a maximum duration would solve that problem well enough.  I would not want it to incur additional cost or lose the invincibility because this would really hurt the usefulness of the spell, since it isn't really very good as a damage or healing spell.

Reply #3 Top

You can just go destroy their citadel while Erebus is in mist form. :P  And when he comes out there is a cooldown on it (about 7 seconds I think) which is enough time to kill him if you play your cards and silence at the right times since he is an otherwise weak character.

Basically I see Erebus as a good newbie Demigod because he can be unkillable which can help newbies keep from being farmed the whole game and make it to late-game.  For a more experienced player who is familiar with other means of escaping death (warping, healing, teamwork, stuns, slows, etc.) I think Erebus's lack of anything other than mist will make him an unlikely choice for competative play.

In short, I wouldn't call a strategy "overpowerd" just because you can't kill a certain Demigod if that Demigod can't kill you (or your creeps/towers/forts/citadel) while he is employing such a strategy.  That being said you did call it cheesy, and not overpowered but I don't have a problem wit cheesy if it means I still win the game against it.

Reply #4 Top

Comparing the items to DotA's items isn't really a good idea, but your points are pretty valid.

 

TLO had a good suggestion for Maim which is to make it's snaring commulitive.  But even then it needs a nerf to it's max slow.
All the others slows cost mana and are either melee, or a slowish projectile that can be dodged.  Maim is definitely imbalanced.

 

Oh, and mistform isn't imbalanced.  It's incapable of killing people.  It USED to do 600 damage per second(but damage the caster too).
Mistform is useful because it gives you control, but it is FAR from cheesey or overpowered.  If anything, it could use a tiny nerf.
It only sort of shines on domination and fortress on some maps. It's pretty worthless on slaughter and conquest.  Far from Imba.  I'd be extremely pissed if it were nerfed by making you no longer invulnerable, or increasing the cost too much.
All the money I spend on mana items.. God.. It takes 3 items, about 16k or 17k worth, to get 70MPS which is still much less than the 125mps it drains.  With all that money spend on mana items, how much do you think I had in the way of damaging people?..  It's only 150DPS too. :|
I think, really, that all +mana items need to be nerfed, but the +mps thigns are fine.  Pretty much all the +mana items give too much max mana imo.

There should be an AoE dispell item though, I think, which would be a way to end mistform.  But it's recharge should be like 45 seconds.

 

*eyes the post date*  Wait.. I played with you and you saw me "Abusing" mistform, didn't you?  And I had like 1/3rd as many kills as my teamates (albeit more grunt kills and 1 or no deaths).

Anyways, stop trying to fix something that isn't broke.  In my opinion, i think you're probably just mad that mistform puts a dent in your plans.  It's like a blue deck in Magic:The Gathering.  It's all about control, but it doesn't do good at smashing.

Just because it's not the usual type of thing, it's overpowered? No.

Quoting Micah71381, reply 3
You can just go destroy their citadel while Erebus is in mist form.  And when he comes out there is a cooldown on it (about 7 seconds I think) which is enough time to kill him if you play your cards and silence at the right times since he is an otherwise weak character.

It's more than 7 seconds.

Reply #5 Top

very good points.
I just want to add that having so many ways to stun or slow down ennemies is a strange choice; because those are very easily unbalanced and it is always frustrating to have to wait 2 or 3 seconds while being stunned.
An item reducing stuns effects or more ways to avoid them would be improve the game.
Demigod lacks avoiding spells such has sprint or invisible to counterbalance all those  slow downs.

Reply #6 Top

Why not just have stuns and freezes be less effective than have an item that practically everyone would end up needing to buy?

That's like making the game where you start the match on fire, and the only way to stop it is to buy the "anti-lighten-on-fire armor" from the shop with your starting gold.

 

Stuns aren't too bad now though.  Only one I think is maybe too long now is the frost nova. 2 sec and doing another effect on the last level would be better.

Reply #7 Top

Sorry but you just cant compare DotA to Demigod this much. Comparing strats and costs of items with two compeltely different games? Sorry, its just fail.

Mist you cannot gain any hp...but you lose a lot of mana - where is the problem? Erebus is, imo, the most UP Demigod in the game, and you want his mist nerfed AGAIN?

I agree with the gauntlets though. 1.5k for such a high chance of doing a MASSIVE slow down is just a joke.

Reply #8 Top

I'm sorry you think comparing a Swear-It's-Not-A-Clone Clone to the game it's cloning is "just fail."

Reply #9 Top

Quoting lord, reply 8
I'm sorry you think comparing a Swear-It's-Not-A-Clone Clone to the game it's cloning is "just fail."

 

If you want to play DotA, that's perfectly fine. Go play DotA. But don't come in here and whine because Demigod isn't the exact same thing. It makes you look ignorant and immature.

Reply #10 Top

I understand where you're coming from inno, but I think you misunderstand me when I talk about "Cheese."

 

Quoting innociv, reply 4
Oh, and mistform isn't imbalanced.  It's incapable of killing people.  It USED to do 600 damage per second(but damage the caster too).
Mistform is useful because it gives you control, but it is FAR from cheesey or overpowered.  If anything, it could use a tiny nerf.

I never said Mistform was imbalanced.  And, more importantly, "cheesy" is not the same as "overpowered."

Properly geared (and with a team that's awake at the keyboard), you're extremely hard to kill.  And you get XP and gold the entire time you're in it, assuming you're close enough to the action.  Hell, just keep level 1 Mistform -- it's the cheapest, and it's not going to kill anyone anyway, so just use it for what it is:  An escape/invulnerability skill.

Erebus sucks, yes.  So far I've seen two GPG employees and Frogboy all admit he's the weakest Demigod.  But one day, Erebus is going to get fixed and he's going to be at least average, hopefully.  Mist may or may not change, but if it doesn't and Erebus is suddenly able to lay down the hurt and avoid death the vast majority of the time, you might be lucky to see just Mist nerfed -- it'll probably be Erebus overall.

Maybe it's just me, but why not fix something that's going to be an issue later when we're still in beta?  Your stats don't matter at this point, and if you did care about stats, you wouldn't be playing Erebus anyway.

 

Quoting innociv, reply 4
Just because it's not the usual type of thing, it's overpowered? No.

Except it's not unique.  It's Sandstorm from DOTA except it channels and you're immune to everything inside it.

 

Quoting Gir92, reply 9

If you want to play DotA, that's perfectly fine. Go play DotA. But don't come in here and whine because Demigod isn't the exact same thing. It makes you look ignorant and immature.

Either add to the discussion or don't.  Stop playing forum cop.  It makes you look ignorant and immature.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting innociv, reply 6
Why not just have stuns and freezes be less effective than have an item that practically everyone would end up needing to buy?

That's like making the game where you start the match on fire, and the only way to stop it is to buy the "anti-lighten-on-fire armor" from the shop with your starting gold.

 

Stuns aren't too bad now though.  Only one I think is maybe too long now is the frost nova. 2 sec and doing another effect on the last level would be better.

Just wanted to note, if you added another effect to frost nova max level, then a 4x shatter would basically roflstomp anybody from full to zero when adding in rain of ice damage. perhaps change the stuns to 1 sec, 1.5 sec, 2 sec?

 

I'd also like to add in... Boulder Roll from melee range (against melee heroes usually who can't help but BE in melee range to do anything) and a hammer for almost 3k damage is pretty cheesy if you ask me... seeing as it took no effort or skill on the part of Rook to execute it, and melee heroes would be forced to never be aggressive until level 18+ unless they wanted their asses handed to them. That's just an opinion though, of course. Feel free to critique me.

Reply #12 Top

I wasn't saying it should have another debuff effected by shatter.  Shatter only effects specific ones, anyways, right now.
I'd make frost nova do 1 sec at lvl 1, then 2sec, and on the 3rd level have it do some damage.  Or maybe not just do damage, but have units killed while effected by frost nova deal 15% of their max health as damage in a small aoe (melee range)

 

Plus you can see in my other thread I've suggested that shatter NEEDS a rework.  It, at the very least, needs to be removed from deep freeze and put somewhere else.  So it wouldn't matter.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting lord, reply 10
I understand where you're coming from inno, but I think you misunderstand me when I talk about "Cheese."

I love cheese though.  It's not like he.. gains control of your demigod and uses it to attack your allies.. or makes it so you are stunned and immortal for a minute.  He just has a good deal of control with mist and bats.

Quoting lord, reply 10
I never said Mistform was imbalanced.  And, more importantly, "cheesy" is not the same as "overpowered."

Properly geared (and with a team that's awake at the keyboard), you're extremely hard to kill.  And you get XP and gold the entire time you're in it, assuming you're close enough to the action.  Hell, just keep level 1 Mistform -- it's the cheapest, and it's not going to kill anyone anyway, so just use it for what it is:  An escape/invulnerability skill.

Erebus sucks, yes.  So far I've seen two GPG employees and Frogboy all admit he's the weakest Demigod.  But one day, Erebus is going to get fixed and he's going to be at least average, hopefully.  Mist may or may not change, but if it doesn't and Erebus is suddenly able to lay down the hurt and avoid death the vast majority of the time, you might be lucky to see just Mist nerfed -- it'll probably be Erebus overall.

Actually I think a lot of us are starting to like erebus more, and would say Oak is the worst.  Erebus is just harder to play.

 

  I agree with you, heover, on the level 1 thing.  I think it's lame getting level 1 mistform because it's cheaper to keep it up for longer.
  All levels should cost 125MPS.  But that's all that should change, negetively, about it.  You still have to keep in mind that people just using the level 1 one aren't going to spend a lot on +MPS items.  It doesn't work with their builds.

Reply #14 Top

I'm sorry you think comparing a Swear-It's-Not-A-Clone Clone to the game it's cloning is "just fail."

Even IF DG was a clone of DoTA, the gameplay is still different to an extent that you just cannot compare strats and costs from the two games. Its simply idiotic and just doesnt work.

And just because they are same genre, doesnt mean they are clones. Does DotA have flags? (one of DG's biggest gameplay mechanics). Can you upgrade your minions hp/armour/type in DotA? (again one of the most important gameplay mechanics in DG).

Mist is fine - its the last thing in the whole game that needs a nerf. I couldnt care less if there was a similar skill in DotA called "sandstorm" and that was well balanced - its a compeltely different game with the same genre.

Reply #15 Top

Yeah.  It's like comparing weapon stats between Red Orchestra, CoD4, and CS.  It doesn't matter what damage what gun does to what body part in either game in reference to another one.

Reply #16 Top

While I'm not for changing mistform (as stated above) I think the original poster was simply trying to say that he thinks the item is too cheap for it's power.  As it is, it's pretty much a "must-have" for everyone due to the low price and incredible effect.

Reply #17 Top

... skill.  Only for erebus

Not incrediable, merely useful.

Reply #18 Top

Yeah, no nerfs to anything Erebus-related please.  He's not great.

 

In terms of balance issues, it perhaps is not pertinent to refer to specifics from DotA.  However, I think it is valid to mention that something which took a great deal of resources to acquire in DotA, which is a very similar game though not a mirror image (please don't dispute that they are similar, it makes you sound silly), can be acquired for free in Demigod.  Especially when it's obvious that a lot of the design and balance decisions made in this game are a response to DotA. 

And yes, it is a problem.  It's too easy for all sorts of Demigods to get slow on enemies.  It dumbs down getting kills, honestly, when half the Demigods have some sort of slow or stun.  Can't figure out a clever way to kill your opponent?  Just slow / stun them and get some of your friends to do the same once yours has worn off.  Bingo!  Yes, there are (or could be) items to counter chain-CC.  But it should require more effort to accomplish the chain-CC effect than to counter it, not the other way around (as it currently stands), because the player stands to gain a lot more by accomplishing perma-slow or perma-stun (guaranteed death of opponent).

It would be fine if there were one or two Demigods who specialized in crowd control / debuff effects, and they were balanced accordingly (re: low weapon damage / no direct damage abilities) but when there are various Demigods with it that have no inherent drawbacks associated with having that ability, there's an issue. 

For example, in DotA N'aix has a melee slow and life stealing abilities.  He's VERY much like Unclean Beast, only he's (more or less) balanced because he begins the game with low hp and slow attack speed.  You need to level him up and buy a lot of the right items to turn him into a true beast, but once you do, he's really good.  Unclean Beast, on the other hand, has middle-of-the-road HP and good damage and attack speed along with slowing, stunning, and low-range DoT abilities pretty much from the word go.

The problem I see, then, is that some of the Demigods seem to be given a whole lot of great stuff without enough drawbacks to have to work around, which dumbs down the game.

Reply #19 Top

The dota "start bad, end good.  Or start good, end bad" doesn't work as well in Demigod balance.

Which, in my opinion, is good.  I hate that sort of mechanic.

 

Oak isn't good right now because he starts bad.  He gets left behind in the begining, so by the time he is good, he's a few levels and a lot of gold behind the ones that are balanced fine.  Erebus is still somewhat okay because while he starts out rather good, he ends as bad as Oak starts.  But you can use his early-game decency to still be alright in middle and later game.  That's why those two are the two worst right now.  By the time Erebus gets life leach aura, it's too late.  And the bonus on last level of all his skills are EXTREMELYYYY poor and need reworking.

Reply #20 Top

Well, I'm not saying that the ideal is for Demigods to "start bad, end good, or start good end bad."  My point is that each Demigod ought to have clear strenghts and clear weaknesses - stuff to take advantage of, and stuff the player has to overcome.  Some Demigods are already that way, but it's been my experience that in general they're designed so that the "overcoming weaknesses" part of the equation is sort of automatic.  For example, yeah, Regulus has low hp / armor.  But he naturally has good damage, long range, and free snare, so there's no great difficult in overcoming that.

Reply #21 Top

Oak is ok.  I'd take him over Erebus any day, and both of them need small buffs to be competitive with Sedna and QoT as Assassins.   

Reply #22 Top

I would take Erebus over Oak any day.  :P  I guess it's just play style.  But they definitely are the two worst.

Reply #23 Top

I would take Erebus over Oak any day. I guess it's just play style. But they definitely are the two worst.

In a team setting, I agree.  Although you need to give shield more credit.  Best Hammerslam counter there is.

I'd play Oak in a 1 v 1 against UB, Rook, Regulus, Erebus, or QoT though, because he has enough time to get his engine running and once he does he pushes better than anyone and gets the kills too.   

 

Reply #24 Top

I wouldn't mind some feedback on how to effectively play Oak.  I've tried a few strategies but they all seem to rely on him getting to late game with a lot of money and without being able to get any hero kills early on that is tough.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Ke5trel, reply 23

I would take Erebus over Oak any day. I guess it's just play style. But they definitely are the two worst.
In a team setting, I agree.  Although you need to give shield more credit.  Best Hammerslam counter there is.

I'd play Oak in a 1 v 1 against UB, Rook, Regulus, Erebus, or QoT though, because he has enough time to get his engine running and once he does he pushes better than anyone and gets the kills too.   

 

I find mist to be the best hammerslam/bile/snipe/frost nova/etc counter. :x  That's why I like erebus.  He's weak, but in a team setting he makes the enemy waste their skills.  You can survive a whlie to hole the enemy off while teamates arrive.
With mist, protecting yourself, you just have to click 1 button to get it off.  That's like a .1-.2 sec advantage.
But yeah, I don't think if I'd play Erebus in a 1v1 game.  Might with Oak, though.

Shield is better in that you can protect allies being sniped/hammerslammed, though.
Shield is nice and all.. but I still think lvl1-2 Shield and lvl1-2 Penitance could use a buff. :/