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Vesuvius
Vesuvius
Join Date 04/2009
+13

Maybe a tweak to generals is in order

April 17, 2009 12:15:37 AM from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Assuming stardock eliminates the summon/resell mechanic, you are effectively limited to six difficult to control minions(not counting hero specific summons) that are rather frail if you don't get upgrades for them(and also kind of frail when you do get upgrades for them).  For lack of a better way to describe it, this scale does not feel right.  In fact, it feels clunky and unpolished.  I keep leaning towards playing assassins because of it.  Obviously there are issues with armies getting too large, but I feel like I'm actually playing a general when I go the summon/resell route and have more like 12-20 units out around my hero.  I think this is the scale that should be aimed for. I think ideally, assasins should play like rpg characters and generals should play like the wizards you get in Sacrifice.

 

Here's what I'd like to see:

 

1.  The limits on each type of idol minion should be raised.  Something along the lines of 6 minotaurs, 4 siege archers, and 2 priests.

2.  The cooldown on idol minion summons should be lowered.

3.  The idols should work like the hero  levels, where you only summon one at a time for the early ones but get more at for more expensive idols.

4.  Minions should reward xp/gold on death as suggested in another thread.  This is necessary to balance out having more of them.  I do not believe this change should be implemented on its own.

5.  The hotkeys to select individual groups of them need to be fixed.

6.  As suggested in another thread, display the number of minions you currently have.

7.  I think generals should have a fully unique set of shop items rather than having the same armors/helms/footware as assasins.  Let the premium item shops carry the generics.  I realize this is unlikely to be implemented but having the same shop items really makes the generals feel more like they're just assassins with nerfed physical stats and the ability  to purchase idols.

8.  Again kind of unlikely to get implemented, but the general's unique units should have castable abilities.

9.  Idols for angels, catapultsauri, and giants .

10.  A more definite counter system.  I shouldn't be selecting all my minions and saying "Go bash that!".

 

I think that's pretty much it.

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Vesuvius
transitive
Join Date 03/2007
+66
Reply #1 April 17, 2009 12:40:52 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

good ideas for the most part. minotaurs in particular seem pretty terrible i've noticed. maybe the idols should summon 3 of them instead of 2?

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Vesuvius
innociv
Join Date 02/2008
+34
Reply #2 April 17, 2009 12:45:22 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Different max number of the summons would just be confusing for new players.. Why not just have the 2 of them be useful?

 

Maybe they are more useful now, haven't really tried since I just play them as assassns still.

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Vesuvius
Vesuvius
Join Date 04/2009
+13
Reply #3 April 17, 2009 8:12:28 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I don't think it would be confusing.  The whole playing a general as an assassin thing is the problem.  Generals need more units.

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Vesuvius
Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
+175
Reply #4 April 17, 2009 8:58:39 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I'd like to see these, except #2. The cooldown is short enough already. (Unless minions are nerfed or summon fewer at a time.)

 

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Vesuvius
HaunterV
Join Date 04/2009
+2
Reply #5 April 18, 2009 1:11:25 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

make the minions of light and dark look different from eachother not just pallette swaps.... sheesh!

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Vesuvius
sagittary
Join Date 05/2008
+41
Reply #6 April 18, 2009 4:24:53 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I would like to see slightly better AI for the minions as well as more general commands for them. General states of aggression and distance away from the general would be nice, for instance. Hold Fire/Return Fire/Fire at Will for how much a minion will act on its own. Close/Escort/Spread for how close they stay tot he general by default. Having minions without orders or doing something default to following the general. Things like this to make having minions less about trying to find and pick them and more about telling them what to do and how to act.

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Vesuvius
GiantJack
Join Date 04/2009
0
Reply #7 April 18, 2009 1:17:10 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

oak doesn't need any buffs. i don't know about the other generals, but oak with 6 minataurs, 4 archers, 2 preists, and however many spirits would be bananas. he can heal inderectly (pretty effortlessly by doing his radius attack around a group of grunts/minions), buff his defense and his allies, de-buff fhis opponents, and come back to life with invincibility to wreak havok for several seconds with no penalty - giving him a unique chance to take his enemies down with him if they didn't defeat him by much. 14 minions and a sheilded oak wailing on an enemy with de-buffed defense would get really old really fast - especially when he and his minions are going to recover a nice chunk of HP as soon as that next wave of reinforcements surrounds him.

 

i haven't tried the other generals, besides sedna for one round. she's not bad once you get her minions some upgrades.

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Vesuvius
PossiblyImpossible
Join Date 08/2008
+1
Reply #8 April 18, 2009 1:41:21 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting innociv,
reply 2
Different max number of the summons would just be confusing for new players.. Why not just have the 2 of them be useful?

 

bingo.

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Vesuvius
weeble1
Join Date 02/2006
0
Reply #9 April 18, 2009 1:52:35 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting GiantJack,
reply 7
oak doesn't need any buffs. i don't know about the other generals, but oak with 6 minataurs, 4 archers, 2 preists, and however many spirits would be bananas. he can heal inderectly (pretty effortlessly by doing his radius attack around a group of grunts/minions), buff his defense and his allies, de-buff fhis opponents, and come back to life with invincibility to wreak havok for several seconds with no penalty - giving him a unique chance to take his enemies down with him if they didn't defeat him by much. 14 minions and a sheilded oak wailing on an enemy with de-buffed defense would get really old really fast - especially when he and his minions are going to recover a nice chunk of HP as soon as that next wave of reinforcements surrounds him.
Agreed.  Oaky is a manbeast right now and the right equipment (+minion health gear) makes him even more of a wrecking crew unless you're able to focus some pretty serious AoE on his entourage, and the fact he just keeps churning out spirits makes him strong as all hell.

All the Generals are significantly better now, and once people figure out how to micromanage them, they will go on the Roflstomp Route.

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Vesuvius
ZephyrTR
Join Date 04/2009
+2
Reply #10 April 18, 2009 2:27:24 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

What's really needed is a friendlier UI for generals. I can't see how much life my units have easily, when to pull them back.

Also, the units are somewhat unnoticeable on the board. A lot of the same colors and palletes are used so everything blends together, especially late game when there are more units on the board. General-controlled idol-summoned units really ought to stand out.

I agree with having separate item shops for generals and assassins.  More items means more customizability, and more builds. Fight cookie cuts.

The largest reason people complain about generals is cause they can't micromanage units. Set your unit select buttons however you want em, you oughta know how to do that. Don't be lazy. Select your items wisely. Bla bla bla.

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Vesuvius
Vesuvius
Join Date 04/2009
+13
Reply #11 April 18, 2009 3:19:31 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

The reason oak is so good is they've been trying to balance generals by making them more and more like assassins.  Oak will literally kill the torchbearer just chasing him down and swinging his ax.  Sure it can be balanced, but it totally mitigates any real difference in playstyle between generals and assassins.  Generals would probably need to be physically weaker if they did this.  I'm not saying generals are too weak, I just object to them being assassins that can also get idols.

 

As zephyr pointed out, UI improvements for generals are also a major issue.  You can't select individual groups of minions.  It tries to cast the spell again when you use those hotkeys.  The only thing you can do is hit m and select all your minions at once.  That's not at all condusive to microing them.  That said, there's little incentive to micro them either aside from redirect the whole mass at target A or target B when you can quickly just replace all of them with a single spell.  This is why I like the idol resell strat actually, you can't resummon so there's incentive to keep them alive.

 

I really think the playstyle of generals just needs a lot of tweaking, not from a balance perspective but from a design perspective.  Their playstyles should be fundamentally different from the playstyles of assassins.

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Vesuvius
Tebo11
Join Date 04/2009
0
Reply #12 April 18, 2009 5:51:16 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Im not sure i would like to see a change. i dont see a problem in useing a general as an assassin. i personaly like to use oak as a supporting assassin. debuffing when i get the chance and then going in for a kill. and i only use summons to boost my own power.  But i dont believe that they are too much like assassins (or assassins with idols) because you do have to buy idols or put skill points into minons, while assassins are building up with whatever they do best. Be it spell casting, sniping, tanking, dps, what ever they are doing. Generals may be able to be played like assassins but they have to invest in it. they will be unable to be a general assassin and a minion master at the same time.

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Vesuvius
Freche
Join Date 02/2003
+1
Reply #13 April 18, 2009 6:14:06 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I agree that there needs to be some improvements on how the minions are managed and the minions.

Quoting Doggiedoodle,
reply 11
You can't select individual groups of minions.  It tries to cast the spell again when you use those hotkeys.  The only thing you can do is hit m and select all your minions at once.  That's not at all condusive to microing them.

Regarding selecting groups of minions I belive that 8,9,0 is the selections for Minions, 0 I know is for priests, 8 I belive is for the siege ones, and 8 should be minotaurs.

 

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Vesuvius
Drexen
Join Date 07/2004
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Reply #14 April 18, 2009 8:37:28 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

A quick easy fix to summon / resell would just be to make it so the idol could not be resold until the 30 sec. cooldown was up.

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