How to fix Generals » Forum Post by Drexen

I gave up on generals being that different.

I've sadly just accepted that they're assassins with pets.

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Please dont take this as a flame or anything because its not, just my perspective on it.

I see you throw oak around alot, he is a very powerful General... but just because he is a general does that mean we should limit him? Take what Generals are... they are leaders that can inspire troops to do there bidding. Oak to me seems like he is a strong powerhouse that inspires through his strengh. i believe he should rightly so be able to go toe to toe with the best of them. Even his special minons are not that powerful but they come back to life to fight by his side. His back story has him defending his home and his people alone for what is it 900 years. Only asking for help when he meets an enemy that he cannot take on by himself. That to me says he is one powerful demigod and should be treated rightly so. Now other Generals cant stand on there own 2 feet (Queen of thorns joke... she stands on the back of her minons =P) she can be strong alone using her special minons as extra damage but when she wants it can take there life to power herself. Her minions give her power. Sedna is about the support. I have not yet seen a complete Assassin Sedna (i have seen ones that dont use minons and stand more about supporting others and helping with kills but not going in solo trying to take on enemies.) but she inspires through good deeds and peace.

Im just saying i believe generals should be able to fight. But weather they should be assassin capable (which i dont think they all are) should depend on there backstory and the type of General they are.

well thats my 2 cents =]

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Need better general-centric items.

Theres also a thing with them not really requiring extra micro. They just follow you around and add to your dps.. You can't use them to block or anything like that.

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I haven't been following this game closely in development, but I thought Generals were supposed to be characters that get their strength from minions and have abilities that support them. But a character like the Torch Bearer has an Aura the buff/debuffs minions and he's an Assassin.

Is there any true difference to Assassins and Generals besides Generals being able to get those minion idols? Can assassins do anything a General can not? Like what makes Assassins stand out besides not having minions? Are they better at killing Demigods? I played a few games were that Vampire Lord was doing a good job of assassinating me...with none of his minions around, and I was an assassin.

I guess I'm just not seeing much of a difference or dynamic here.

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I was just under the impression that Generals would be TOTALLY different to play. I was really REALLY let down and lost intrest in the game for like a month. But I got over it and I'm back and having a blast

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Well yeah, it's still a fun game. But at a glance, it almost makes Generals feel like they have an edge over Assassains. They just seem like Demigods with more abilities.

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Generals can go Assassin style, though they tend to have less options for it. If they do go minion heavy, they tend to be a bit weaker on their own.

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I can just do a lot better with a better mana regen helm or health item then I can with archers and minos. Healers are nice, but they don't realiably heal.

Just Assassins with pets

But hey, it's still fun.

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Ok guys i gave my perspectives... They are just demigods they can be used however you want to use them

for some reason im tired of trying to defend them from the stacking number of QQ posts that i have been seeing about how they need to be "fixed" or how using a general the way you want is "cheating" or that is not how they were "meant" to be played.

This game is about taking your demigod and doing what you want with it. What are you worried about that they are to strong? ok give it some time they will be rebalenced? Are you worried you cant be a minion master? because you clearly can if thats what you want to go for... are you worried that they can spec and be used as an assassin? if so why is that a problem at all... thats how they choose to play their demigod and i see no reason it is an error.

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As long as it's not an unfair advantage, wtf ever.

I'm just sad cause of all the "THEY WILL BE SO DIF LOL!" things I read. But like I said, I got over that. It's a fun ass game and I'll be damned if I'm not gunna play it.

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But they are different... how many tank Sedna have you seen? or full support rooks? sure you can make them and you might have seen them but that to me is part of the beauty in the game... pick a demigod you connect with and make it your own. I personaly love the Oak and his story he is truely dedicated to his cause that he wouldnt die... he commanded such respect that simply asking the dead to rise and fight by his side was enough to cause spirits to rise up and join him. But why should that completly limit me when i play him? Sure if i want him to do things an Assassin cannot do i can. But how many Generals do you see with the Avalible options that Assassins have in terms of what they do (assassinate =P)

i think the point is that they have the ABILITY to be as different as you want... but they dont HAVE to be. and i simply love that in the game. Its an option they gave us players

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Ok, I give ya that, they can be more then one role.

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But how many Generals do you see with the Avalible options that Assassins have in terms of what they do (assassinate =P)

That's what I was wondering. Do assassins indeed have better builds to "assassinate" or can Generals do the exact same thing PLUS they can buy some idols? I know it sounds like Assassins and Generals aren't that different from each other, I just want to know of if there is some sort of trade off that Generals get for having those minion idols while Assassins do not.

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Good question. But when you look at it Generals do have a way to play as an assassin... but are they flexible at it? they have a abilities that dont concern minons at all but not all of there moves are that way. They have the ability but its more of a stright forward lock twords what abilities and how you will play.

On the other hand assassins each have different ways that they can go about doing there business. Mine Reg? snipe reg? Dps reg? Shatter TB? Fire TB? Form dancing TB? Anti Structure Rook? Anti Creep Rook? Anti DG Rook? ect ect. im sure there are many others such as Dps TB and what not. If someone is going to use a General As an assassin you kno what moves they will use and how they will use them. It will be effective but not flexable.

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Well if that's the case it doesn't sound too bad. But still that leaves my main question unanswered. What's the General's trade-off for having minion idols while Assassins don't? Even if a General's assassin build is straight forward, is it as good as an Assassin's..."Assassin" build? And what's the advantage of being flexable with your builds? Once people start learning the game people will became familiar with Assassin builds and know what to expect with them as well.

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OK I have no problem with generals being able to "spec" LIKE an assassin but when doing so they should not be as powerful as an assassin (which is why I pick on Oak) because an assassin cannot spec as a general in any way shape or form (no minions). That being said you should also try to play a solo game and spec full minion because from my many attempts it seems that at first (early levels up to 10 or so) a minion spec is powerful, but after that once other demigods are all getting their AOE instant minion mashers in play these types of builds are useless. Now if you want to defend the Oak with a storyline then lets talk about how Queen of Thorns can cause all manner of creatures to do her bidding (her storyline) if going on her storyline she should be summoning more than just 4 minions right? or maybe some kind of charm spell? The problem is that any beef build can run right up and start to whack on a minion specced general and they go down too quick (see Queen of Thorns). Their minions should be getting in the way, or slowing down the attacker while they run for cover im just sad that right now it seems that a power spec demigod is the most powerful type of demigod. Love should be given to those who want to use minions. Oh and try speccing Queen of Thorns like an assassin as it seems popular to do with Oak, its a joke.

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QoT as an Assassin works pretty damned well. It's no Regulus or anything, but a QoT built as an Assassin is a force to be reckoned with.

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Oh so let me get this right you cant use assassins to support minons and creeps? sure you cant make your own but just like a general in an assassin build you wont have ALL the options an assassin has. if you want to play an assassin as a general. invest in any skills that support units, upgrade creep at anytime you can. fight ONLY with creep by your side which you should be protecting / buffing. You will not be able to create your own minions. but that does not stop you from helping what units are there all ready. Go for it. PLAY THE GAME HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY IT. the only reason i see people upset is because they are like "oh well what do i get if a general can play like me" you get more options, you get surprise (have you ever wondered if a reg is gonna drop mines or snipe you? TB gonna go fire or ice? but if you fight an oak who is an assassin build guess what you KNOW how he is going to fight)

So guess what us minority that play Generals (and yes last time i checks, last night, the bottom 4 played characters were generals, most of them with low winning %) are not being cheap, were not cheating, we are not being over powered, we are playing how we want to play. just because they are different classes doesnt mean they cant do what each other can do slightly less effective (yes i say less effective because we do not HAVE THE OPTIONS YOU HAVE, this game is about OPTIONS play how you want to play)

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Quoting Tebo11,

reply 18

So guess what us minority that play Generals (and yes last time i checks, last night, the bottom 4 played characters were generals, most of them with low winning %)

I think this right here should have more attention to it. If everyone is playing generals as assassins, and the generals are the least played as well as have the lowest win %, perhaps it can be deduced that the community as a whole havnt gotten the hang of minions.

Now sure, there are a lot of you out there saying "Pfft Chaosbrynn, your nuts, Im a master minioner because I played X game forever". Well, perhaps we are all missing something.

I think that is what is happening anyways. Playing characters like assassins is the easier of the 2 methods. It is also the more intuitive one. I sincerely believe it will only take a couple of good general players to pop up and show us all how to do it right before they take off.

As prrof of this, Id like you all to try something I have foiund very effective. Use QoT, take her minions, take archers. Get minion upgrades. Click the button on the left that selects you AND ALL YOUR MINIONS. Now, right click an incomming demigod. Better yet, do it while your ally tanks that demigod. It is VERY effective.

I just think we are all lazy and cant be bothered with the extra micro since there is no one pointing out the way to OMGWTFBBQ minion power. Once someone does, I have no doubt generals will be playing more minion heavy.

Lastly, I saw someone mention minions are useless late game because they are easily wwiped off the battlefield by AOE spells. This happens every single time if you play your general as an assassin and get some minions for support. However, if you take minion buffing equipment and use your minion buffing abilities (including Moral) minions become very powerful. Everyone agrees giants are incredibly powerful, well, guess what, compared to what a generals minions CAN be, they are on the low side of the power scale.

Food for thought, cheers folks,

Chaosbrynn

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Good point Chaosbrynn. we do have a great potential with our minions (and i do use the minion method more then the assassin general method and i think im getting good with them =]) but the point is i get harrased so much when i use a general as what i want him to be that game then i should. honestly i have had people call me a "cheater" a "cheap" player. others have said i dont follow the rules, that i shouldnt be allowed to play a general this way. its all options folks... i have no idea when having more options in the game has ever been a bad thing

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The differentiation between 'general' and 'assassin' didn't seem to really be thought about much except in terms of the four generals spawn minions of their own and have to spend money on idols. The terms really feel like misnomers. The kinds of abilities they get and such dont seem to go in tow with the theme that these guys were built around.

An example: The rook -- even at max level, the boulder doesn't stun for very long. The hammer is avoidable by heroes. Eat is defensive/anti-structure, and towers can't be used to pursue a retretaing hero to make the kill. He's the slowest character in the game, but has no natural ability to slow his opponent down and only one stun which, despite its long range, has no guarantee of hitting. The rook is push and defense, but by no means is he naturally equipped to think about running the board hunting kills. He is not an "assassin".

The generals on the other hand can't even tell their priests who to heal. How can you do a standard M&M dance (pulling from the starcraft playbook here) if you cant direct how your priests use their mana? They have no good means of keeping track of their units life totals or even how many units they have out.

I really don't want a game where anyone can play whatever character however they want with some good success. I want drastically different characters put in two drastically different categories that, yes, have different builds but also serious limitations on what they can do. I currently do not see that, which is why you already have a handfull of demigods that are barely being touched by players, and that's a horrendous thing to happen in a game with only 8 playable characters.

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When I was excited about Generals, I really felt they would rarely be on the front lines and I would be microing a lot like SupCom. Many units and being able to effect multiple lanes at once. Not really a DG killer, but a map manager. I remember being told Minions would be able to cap flags and before buildings had AOE dmg, I thought I could flood a building with fodder while an assassin beats it down.

The fact that its just a blob of units running into battle kills the idea of a General for me. I love the game, but I don't really look at the two being that different.

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The differentiation between 'general' and 'assassin' didn't seem to really be thought about much except in terms of the four generals spawn minions of their own and have to spend money on idols. The terms really feel like misnomers. The kinds of abilities they get and such dont seem to go in tow with the theme that these guys were built around.

An example: The rook -- even at max level, the boulder doesn't stun for very long. The hammer is avoidable by heroes. Eat is defensive/anti-structure, and towers can't be used to pursue a retretaing hero to make the kill. He's the slowest character in the game, but has no natural ability to slow his opponent down and only one stun which, despite its long range, has no guarantee of hitting. The rook is push and defense, but by no means is he naturally equipped to think about running the board hunting kills. He is not an "assassin".

Maybe this is what's bugging me. I really don't see many major difference between the two. Generals minions don't seem to offer anything but an extra blob of DPS that is slithgly tougher than the grunts. And then you have an Assassin like the TB that has auras that are just as supportive to minions as some General ablities.

Let me pose this question, if they just removed the classification of Assassins and Generals, called them all Demigods, and just totally removed Idols from the game...would it even effect game balance at all? Would Generals be just as powerful? Just some types of demigod can summon some minions, be it spirits,yeties, shambler, nightclawer?

It just seems these different classifications don't mean anything and this Idol/General mechanic is broken.

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As prrof of this, Id like you all to try something I have foiund very effective. Use QoT, take her minions, take archers. Get minion upgrades. Click the button on the left that selects you AND ALL YOUR MINIONS. Now, right click an incomming demigod. Better yet, do it while your ally tanks that demigod. It is VERY effective.

Very effective if the demigod player you are attacking is a moron. For instance if I am playing a character without minions and who is specced for "assassin" im not going to stand toe to toe with another assassin beating on him while QoT throws minions and spells at me im gonna go beat on QoT knowing she is going to go down faster. And because I spent my money on speed equip and +atk, +atk speed instead of idols im gonna chase her down and eat her lunch and her minions can sit there and watch. Thats why I am saying minions need a boost, maybe acting like a caltrops for advancing demigods just so mister half god on steroids isnt able to immediatly chase and beat little miss I minions down and beat her to a crying pulp. Now granted Oak (yes he is my designated target) has awesome minion skills because he is able to heal his minions while beating up other minions / not only that but the more minions he has the stronger he gets / not only that but if his or his minions health gets low he can run up and AOE a creep group / not only that but he can put on a shield of INVULNERABILITY and run away if things go sour. Just about any way you spec Oak he is powerful, which is what should be true of ALL demigods! Now chaosbrynn go grab your minion loving QoT and go up against Tebo11 and his beloved Oak and then tell me there isnt balance issues here.

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Now chaosbrynn go grab your minion loving QoT and go up against Tebo11 and his beloved Oak and then tell me there isnt balance issues here.

lol gotta love Oak and his super usefulness =P but to tell you the truth i mostly use UB... beside the point i think that QoT could totaly pwn Oaks minions with her AoE capabilities if givin the chance to to be fair if they are buffed or i simply summon more minions they will swarm you Oak is tearing up QoT in melee *shrugs*

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