Struggles as Sedna

from Demigod Forums

I have been playing Sedna as a support char with some friends, typically a selection of a Rook, Oak and Regulus. Build wise I am going for Pounce and Heal with Silence and Healing wind II for large heals from priest minions/creeps. I only buy priest mi. Typically I open by getting heal and then buying monks to give me staying power at the start. I am wondering whether it might be worth going for a helm and chest piece instead (scaled helm + banded armor).

 

However I have struggled with a few things as Sedna, firstly early game you have no AoE and as such I tend to find unless I manage to cap flags often I lag behind on level at the start as I cannot hit every creep in a wave to ensure XP gain. Ignoring favor items (as they are usual off in custom, plus buggy atm) I am not sure how people counter this. Getting nature's reckoning ring which provides a 15% chance on hit to AoE is one tactic I have considered but it cannot be bought as a starting item (where it would provide maximum xp benefit) and 1500 gold is fairly expensive at the start of the game, would require sacrificing early priest summons or gear e.g. Vlemish. I'm not sure if the trade-off is worth it. It's understandeable to lack levels slightly as a non-AoE support class but I was wondering if others had some tips to counter it.

 

Secondly problem I have encountered is that even supporting Oak, together we have a real struggle against minion heavy generals later game e.g. a minion heavy Erebus. Backing up Rook is more effective at dealing with this but we still found the minion heavy generals exceedingly hard to deal with as we were cut down very fast. Any advice on how to deal with this?

 

Hope to get some good ideas going! Boffinboy

3,243 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

I've played a wide variety of games and tend to be drawn to healer/defensive philosophies. I think its a personality type thing and I do know that there is a certain type of person who prefer reactionary strategies and/or helping out a team and find that much more fun/effective/comfortable.

Like a lot of people playing Demigod I used to play WoW. I played a Priest right from release and was heavily involved with raiding up until several months after BC came out - at which point I burned out. Of course there were a lot of different elements that contributed but one of them was the fact that if you were a healer thats all you did.

I realise quite a few things have changed for the better for healers in WoW and a lot of that has to do with changes made to make things more dynamic, let healers do good healing and damage, effects etc at the same time. But I'll be @#$%ed if I go back to that game

For a great many people this philosophy of maximising heals and forsaking everything else is still very prevalent and to a certain extent if you play a character/class/faction/whatever that heals there will be an expectation placed on you by other players to focus on the heals and any deviation from that will have people calling you a noob etc.

Its tough, and you may have to put up with a bunch of narrow minded idiots, but resist the pressure to be a healbot.

I think the important thing to recognise about the mechanics of Demigod is that the power of your character is derived from what you kill. While you can to an extent follow somebody around healing them and soak up xp its nowhere near as effective as hitting things. Without the levels and cash you will not have access to skills/equipment and you will find yourself getting owned.

So it may be a little bit counter intuitive, but you need to do damage so that you can be an effective combat healer. Keywords here: Combat Healer.

It helps to think of heals as helpful damage. Don't see your heal as just a restoration of hit points - view it as a sort of reverse fireball that you can throw around. Then add those numbers to your damage output. Even though you may be doing less damage than other DG's if your heals+damage is higher you are having a much greater impact on the game.

What the healer/dps hybrid offers is extreme flexibility in pushing numbers around. I know from experience in trying to balance pen and paper rpgs as well as watching developers try to balance their online games that healer/dps hybrids are incredibly difficult to balance because of this flexibility

A healer/dps hybrid pushing around 6000 points in either heals or damage is much much much more powerful than a healer pushing around 6000 points of healing or a dps pushing around 6000 points of damage. This is why whenever possible developers tend to avoid hybrids or underpower them and thats why the philosophy of healers only heal, dps only dps' is so deeply embedded in the minds of gamers.

All that said - while Sedna can be played as a healer she is much more effective played as a hybrid. It is very obvious when you look at her skills that she is intended to be a hybrid.

Given that the Forces of Darkness don't have access to Sedna i'm inclined to believe that the healer is not necessary. It is very powerful to have access to healing - but there are many ways in which the raw numbers can be manipulated and DG's other than Sedna do have access to skills/items that provide positive number flow.

So in as much as it may appear that I'm advocating healers being 'necessary' I really don't think thats the case as to varying degrees all DG's appear to be hybrids. I would say Sedna is the DG with the highest percentage of healer to dps.

End of quote

I thought quoting this post I made on an older thread might be helpful for you. It also saves me from typing it again ^_^'

I think it covers your problem with Sedna pretty well. Its just such an easy misconception to make about the game that I'm starting to think Sedna should come with a warning label. From your description its sounds like a pretty classic case of forsaking dps abilities for pure healing/support and that simply can not work in Demigod.

You need to be hitting things and 'up there' on the damage meter - in the case of Sedna your largest source of 'AoE' damage is minions. She is a General after all. Don't take that as proof that you can not play a very important healing and support role, but recognise that you should be doing it in tandem with minions and personal dps.

As for your other problem I would look towards AoE abilities. Now I think you've shown indications in your post that you know AoE is the answer, but without the cash and experience that comes with killing the enemy you cant afford to buy the items or level to the skills. So I think your second problem is heavily related to the first.

There are plenty of items that grant AoE effects and with Sedna in particular you have an AoE component to Heal IV (Fantastic synergy for your intended playstyle) If you can fit it into your build Wild Swings on Yetis is a non obvious and late game form of AoE.

As an aside - looking back on it now I think what I was trying to do in the opening paragraphs of the quoted post was point out that playing pure support and healing kinda sucks in the long term and that being a hybrid that can do both has a much higher fun value than following people around monitoring a health bar.

Maybe that comes through in the original but I wanted to clear it up as otherwise the preamble kinda comes across as a bit random and unrelated. I think Stardock made a good choice in not making any Demigods REMFs.

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

I believe XP gain is shared just from being near creeps.  You only have to hit for the gold.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's right. :P

 

Sedna pwns face.  But lack of aoe can be a bit of a problem if priests come up early.

Yeti's have AoE, but it takes a lot of skill points and is late.  Also, yeti's suck.

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

Thanks for your post Sil :) I'm 100% sure that I would not say the issue is that I am forsaking damage and playing as a stand back healer. I'm not typically a 'healer' player in terms of what I like to play but went with Sedna as I thought she could provide an aggressive DG who has good surviveability and team value. I focus on trying to get in and harass with teamates and make hit and run finishes on people and high pounce is part of that. Getting yetis would probably force me to sacrifice some healing, pounce or both and I think having those two skills boosted outweighs the advantage of yetis. Yetis tend to drop fast unless you are geared for minions. I think perhaps I will try going for a helm and chestplate rather than priests first and then get the AoE ring next to help with creep killing.

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Yah I cleaned up my post a bit - got things a little better straightened out as I hit submit before I reread your post and picked up on a few more details that slightly altered what I should have said.

I do stand by the point that if you are falling behind on cash and levels then the issue revolves around keeping up on kills.

But my knee jerk reaction on seeing 'I play healing support Sedna - but I'm falling behind' should have probably been a wee bit more tempered by reading what you actually said instead of what I expected to see. In my defence I've seen quite a few people say exactly that or point to it as evidence Sedna sucks but I do apologise.

As for the more subtle side that you were really talking about... umm yeah thats a tricky one. I do think it has to be minions - but that doesnt necessarily have to come out of your skill choices - you can just pick up some minotaurs for gold. While it costs cash to buy the idol those minotaurs are generating money for you by hitting the creeps. They only need to hit them enough to grant you cash when they are killed (somebody has the formula out there somewhere but I believe the rough guide was 25% of total hp) so buying idols becomes more of an investment that an expenditure.

So maybe experiment with that because otherwise, as you pointed out, your options in spreading damage around early on are limited.

Edit: Btw one of my first questions when I joined these forums was if your personal minions give your opponents gold or xp and the answer is they dont. So really the only downside to minions is the idol purchase cost and any mana you spend summoning. If they generate money... why the hell not use them?

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

Innoc, that's an interesting point, I had assumed you did not get the xp either if you hadn't done 25% damage. If you get the xp from simply being nearby it may just be in the last couple of games I have not been getting in the creep action enough!

No problems Silph, I have read a few similar posts so I can see where the reaction is from! I think I'll give using some damaging minions a go as a way of spreading the damage about for cash gains. Unfortunately since multiplayer is not working for me yet I am relying on gameranger to set up games with my friends and it's fairly slow to get one going :(

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

I'm pretty sure you or something you control has to tag it. If it was based on proximity a lot of the ranged DG's could easily get shafted (or the radius would be huge)

No worries Boffinboy - maybe you could experiment vs the AI? play the same map several times with and without minions and keep an eye on how quickly you generate cash. Maybe you'll discover something else entirely by accident in the process.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

Sedna with priests in the begining is almost impossible to kill. Playing smart you can hold your ground against two demigods at the same time if you get 1v1 then you will push them back or atleast so they wont get any gold from creeps.

With priests on your back you also can take on front towers at rank 3 (heal + healing wind + inner grace).

I play a harassing sedna and since I buy priests in the begining I got quite limited mana early game only use pounce as finisher and interupter.


It is also very important that you don't go back to the citadel/shop too often. First time I head back to base is usually when the citadel is about to hit rank 3 to buy Currency and if I got money (which I almost always do) I also buy Vlemish Faceguard. Facegaurd will let you be at the front for a great time (depending on how many big hero clashes you will have).

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

I play Sedna as a Yeti build myself. I take that and Pounce as early as possible and make sure they stay leveled up. Then I mix in the healing aura (makes your allies and your minions harder to kill and you do it automatically). Along with that, I'll throw in the direct heal.

Much like the Oak, she needs about 5 levels to be really good at killing other DGs. Think about survivability for you and your minions. If you plan her out to survive, you'll find you also have a lot of support ability naturally. Don't go into the battle planning on being a direct healer, go into battle being a Yeti death dealer with heals and auras to back you and your teammates up.

Like any game, the faster you kill your opponents, the better your team is doing. Merge that with her healing abilities and you'll not only be a good teammate, but a force to reckon with on your own.

 

I'd easily put Sedna as the second best General, a bit behind Oak... But she offers more to teammates than death machine that the Oak does. ;)

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting innociv, reply 2
I believe XP gain is shared just from being near creeps.  You only have to hit for the gold.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's right.

 

Sedna pwns face.  But lack of aoe can be a bit of a problem if priests come up early.

Yeti's have AoE, but it takes a lot of skill points and is late.  Also, yeti's suck.
End of innociv's quote

 

i completely agree. this has very much been my experience with Sedna as well.

 

the yeti's were awkward and consumed mana that should have been doing more productive things than resummoning Yetis. their problem is mostly slow movement speed and vulnerability to to various AoE damage effects. they'll get picked off without your opponent even especially paying attention to them. and its rare that they spend enough time in melee contact with an enemy DG to be particularly dangerous. they do however help farm creeps, so for strictly that purpose they work well. 

 

what i've taken to doing is focusing on Sedna's DG killing abilities and gaining my big chunks of exp and gold through DG kills rather than creep farming. this means focusing on Inner Grace (run speed boosting passives are amazing in general), Pounce, and Silence. you can still support your allies effectively with Healing Wind as a nice regen aura, or you can get the Heal ability as well if you supplement your mana supply with potions. 

 

whenever you find yourself in a situation where you're just sitting around beating up creeps take it as a signal that you're in the wrong spot, since the build i play is very bad at creep farming. what you should be doing whenever the enemy team is leaving you alone is going to cap flags. Sedna is extraordinarily good at ninja capping flags behind enemy lines. she's fast and can easily recover or regen her health so walking right through a row of towers is no problem. you can cut out enemy portals or gold mines or maybe even their valor flag, depending on the map. if you came prepared with a teleport scroll and a capture lock you can severely disrupt their economy/war score for a long time. 

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

I think I will definitely have an experiment against the AI, just test a few things out. Does anyone know if the healing wind aura also affects Sedna herself? I have been assuming it does but the tooltip doesn't make it that clear.

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Boffinboy, reply 10
I think I will definitely have an experiment against the AI, just test a few things out. Does anyone know if the healing wind aura also affects Sedna herself? I have been assuming it does but the tooltip doesn't make it that clear.
End of Boffinboy's quote

I am 85% sure the aura affects Sedna herself, the little aura picture turns on once you get the ability :grin:

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

I hardly bother getting the direct heal at all, I focus on maxing pounce, inner grace, healing aura, and silence.  I won't get the direct heal until very late game, and due to all the +healing/sec provided with the above, I'm a force to be reckoned with.  The only problem is killing creeps, but she has great 1v1 potential.

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

Thing is, when you are on a team of players, that's when the direct heal becomes significantly better. Patching someone up who is getting hammered is significantly more effective than using your weak DPS and pounce abilities.

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

You will gain exp from just being near the creep kills, but typically if you're capping a flag that's in the path of creep spawn, Sedna will kill them all herself without having to click on them.

I personally start by picking up heal, during the initial creeping phases you want to be able to stay alive to push back any enemy demigods going for caps. At that rank with demigods having a couple abilities at most, your heal should give you a victory (kill or push them back/port) via attrition.

From my experience creeping at low levels requires you have heal. Pounce will only benefit you to drive an enemy demigod away. You're not going to kill creeps with pounce that's just a waste of mana. You need heal to remain in the area near the creeps for the exp gain; and the exp is based on being near them and not on damage, though typically if it's only creeps standing in the front line will kill the creeps rapidly.

I use this and keep up just fine in levels to the mid-range.