Daikaze

Join Date 02/2008

[Balance] Thoughts on the balance of the game

Okay, so it seems that there's a lot of discussion about various Demigods being overpowered or underpowered. I've heard arguements for both sides of every Demigod. I've done my best to play a variety of Demigods, and I've come to a few conclusions. What it boilds down to is that certain mechanics and abilities are overpowered when they are combined with various items or abilities.

Health regen is overpowered in this game. The amount of +health regen that a player can stack is pretty insane. This means that characters like Sedna and Erebus can be quite OP in certain situations. The stacking of health regen needs to be tweaked, or the values need to be reduced.

Erebus Mist + Health Regen: Erebus is a good Demigod, but his health regen can reach very high levels, and he is able to go into mist form and continue to regain health. I'm on the fence as to whether this combination is particularly overpowered, as it is a trade of mana to health. I figured it was appropriate to mention the combo to further the point of health regeneration being a slightly broken mechanic.

Edit: Seems I was wrong... My bad.

Heart of Life: I can't quite say it's overpowered, but I think it a better balance would be a recharge over 15 seconds instead of 10... I don't encounter it much. I think the amount of benefit provided outweighs the cost a little too much... but I'm on the fence on this one.

Oak Immunity + Heart of Life: This ability doesn't last very long, but it does allow him to use the Heart of Life without the possibility of being interupted.

QoT + Heart of Life: Okay, assuming that Oak is supposed to be allowed to use the Heart of Life with his shield active, then shouldn't QoT be able to do the same?

Ability Damage Mitigation: The game lacks the ability to mitigate damage from abilities. In some ways this is good, but it also seems like it can be a little unbalanced at times. There's a stat ability/skill at the bottom of the Demigod skill tree. It would be nice to have a damage reduction vs abilities added to it. I think ability damage mitigating items would become overpowered as they'd put heroes like TB at a disadvantage.

Abilities: Some abilities need a slight rebalancing.

Spit (Unclean Beast): It's a tad excessive on the damage for a melee based Assassin. It's got a 7 second cooldown, and a 10 second duration and the mana cost appears to be on par with most abilities. I'd say that duration should be 15 seconds, with the same damage, and a slightly longer cooldown. Assuming it can't be stacked with itself, I'd say a 10 or 12 second cooldown would be fine.

Spit (Unclean Beast): After further evaluation I think the ability should not work on buildings. The ability isn't too bad, but I do think that the recast might be a bit much.

Shield (QoT): I play the QoT a lot, and I feel that the shield is a little too good early on, but it doesn't scale very well. Damage output towards mid-late game is high enough to burn the shield down in a very short period of time (Oak can do it in about 3 shots).

Mines (Regulus): These are a tad excessive in my book. I've played as Regulus a bit, and I've played against him more. These things are more like grenades than mines. A longer cast time, lower damage, or few allowed on the field would probably do the trick.

Snipe (Regulus): Personally, I don't think it is overpowered. The problem is that most maps are small enough to give Regulus full access to snipe anyone on the map. I'm not sure this can be balanced fairly, and I don't particularly think it needs to be.

Torch Bearer and Sedna: I haven't been able to say much about them due to a lack of play/encounter with the Demigods. The most I can say is that Torch Bearer seems fine at first glance, and Sedna has the balance issues created by excessive health regeneration.

So, what does everyone think? Did I miss anything?

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Hmm, mostly I disagree with you, and here is why:

Of course health regen becomes more powerful as you stack it. This is true of any effect that you can stack with multiple items or abilities. You can stack multiple attack speed items to get insane speeds, or stack health items to have 7000+ HP, etc. However, because it is rather difficult to feasibly stack a single trait that high, I don't think it's an issue. Even for Senda/Erebus, who can get to that level easier, I don't think it's too insane. That's just how those characters are.

Oak Immunity + Heart of Life is a good combo... so is Immunity and a teleport scroll, or a rejuv potion, or anything else that is vital to keep un-interrupted. That's the point of his ability! The same with QoT. Of course, I don't think you're saying that Immunity is over-powered (it isn't) but that Heart of Life is, in which case I semi-agree. The Heart should be toned down a little... but only a little.

Ability damage mitigation: I agree that it's odd that armor rating doesn't seem to affect abilities at all. I really, really think that it should, although not as much. For example, having 50% armor should not equate to 50% less damage from Demigods. Instead, maybe... 10%? In any case, whatever a Demigod's armor rating is, I think it should equate to SOME kind of linear reduction of damage from other Demigods.

Spit: I don't think it is unbalanced too badly. It does comparable damage to any other Demigod's ability. It just does so over a longer period of time. You're saying that it does damage TOO quickly? Rook can do 1700 damage with his hammer in about 2 seconds.

Shield: I agree that it doesn't scale well. It is really good early to mid game, and not so great late game. I think one solution would be to make it based on the receiving Demigod's maximum health, instead of a flat amount. It could start at 35% and upgrade to 50%. 35% of 2000 (a rough level 1 Demigod) is 700, and 50% of 5000 (a rough mid-late Demigod) is 2500. It sounds reasonable on paper, and would need thorough testing, but I think it'd work.

Mines: As a regular Regulus player, I agree that Mines can be pretty lethal. However, Regulus is supposed to be a high-damage dealer, so they shouldn't take too much of a loss. I think a good change might be to increase the amount of mines that can be active at once, while decreasing the cooldown and limiting it to 1 mine thrown at a time. This would encourage players to place mines ahead of time and manipulate Demigods into walking into them, setting traps and such, while reducing their effectiveness in full-on battle.

Snipe: I don't think it is overpowered and should be changed at all. It does not completely cover "most maps," only the smaller 2v2 and 3v3 ones. Remember there are 4v4 and 5v5 maps too, which are QUITE large.

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Spit is way unbalanced in my opinion. how can you compare it to the rooks 1700 take forever to swing when thats instant and recharges in 7 seconds. it needs a little longer cooldown in my opinion.

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Quoting Jdub121686,

reply 2

Spit is way unbalanced in my opinion. how can you compare it to the rooks 1700 take forever to swing when thats instant and recharges in 7 seconds. it needs a little longer cooldown in my opinion.

Because Rook's swing combos with his boulder roll and just about any other stun ability. Sedna's Pounce does 1000 damage at max and has identical cooldown, Regulus' mines do more damage, only quicker, etc. All the Demigods have a high-damage ability. I'd agree that reducing the damage a slight amount would help, but it's not such a big deal.

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Yeah, but it's easy to avoid the hammer, but it's really hard (stun and/or run away) to avoid a spit. Rook has to really time the hammer or use a boulder roll to stun the target and then hit them.

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Erebus Mist + Health Regen: Erebus is a good Demigod, but his health regen can reach very high levels, and he is able to go into mist form and continue to regain health

Using mist form freezes your health.. unless they changed it from beta.

and Sedna has the balance issues created by excessive health regeneration.

Seriously?

Again.. seriously?

The damage is around the same as other 7 second abilities of it's cost, yet you have to wait 10 seconds. It doesn't benefit much from lower cooldown items. The complaining about spit is all "bawww i'm taking damage and can't stop it!" but, you can stop it. While other attacks that instantly do damage you take it right away.. Isn't taking 1000 damage instantly every 5 seconds a lot worse than 1150 every 10 seconds?..

Why do people think spit is so amazing, but fireball, pounce, etc isn't? Only problem with spit that it's really good against buildings when ub is good enough at dropping buildings with his high damage normal attacks. It could use a 0.5 or 1.0 second cast too though. But I'm not sure. It's annoying to me that I can never interupt it with pounce or deep freeze, but I don't know if that means I should be able to..

The only thing I agree with is shield+hol being too good together, and that QoT shield is too good early on. And mines shouldn't really be used as hand grenades so much, so a longer delay before they activate or longer cast time would be good. But that's mostly stuff I touched on at http://forums.demigodthegame.com/348135

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Using mist form freezes your health.. unless they changed it from beta.

Nope, he regenerates during the use of this ability.

EDIT: Seems I was wrong.

As far as Sedna and health regen goes, I just think that health regen becomes unbalanced when stacked. I'm just suggesting diminishing returns at some point.

Perhaps I'll have to re-evaluate my opinion of Spit. I'll play a bit more and see what I come up with. I suppose it might be balanced... If you can purge the effect with an item ( can't recall the name ) then that would probably balance out the fact that it's a fairly power ranged attack that you aren't going to be able to dodge.

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Health Regen unbalanced? I was really hoping to see some good thoughts in this thread, and that was a terrible way to start.

In most DG on DG confrontations, damage comes in large bursts, especially over the span of 5 to 10 seconds. Even some of the better regen in the game will only heal a couple hundred hit points in that time. And that's generally just Sedna, and it is sorta what she DOES.

Anyhow, here's a few of my thoughts on balance:

Heart of Life. Play with this item a few times, especially on high hit point classes, and it really starts to show. The item is just too good for it's cost. Now, depending on the exact desire of the developers, the balance options vary:

If they are looking for a mid game item that provides re-useable health: This has the most options available to it. Give it a second or two casting time, significantly higher cooldown, or significantly less effect.

If they are looking for a powerful regen item that has as a balance it being useless in combat: There are numerous effects that can negate this. Either a very extreme casting time, or a limitation such as 'cannot move, attack, or use abilities' while under its effects.

A top of the line item that focuses solely on giving health and mana: This assumes it is meant to be very strong, but simply wasn't costed right. If the heart were 7000 gold, and perhaps only available from the artifact merchant, that'd change it's place in the game significantly. It starts butting heads with other strong artifact items, and also doesn't effect the game until later

2. Snipe: This ones a pretty close one, but I think it bears consideration. The argument saying that snipe is too strong generally run along the lines of:

The range allows for Reg to count for damage in every battle, not just the ones nearby.

There are no good solutions to defend against it

At long range, the damage is too good compared to the level of the ability.

Arguments saying it is okay generall go along the lines of:

Damage and cooldown are very weak when in close (same fighting area) battles

Health regeneration or priests are actually quite effective counters

Effects players the most who don't know 'about' regulus. If you don't realize he can snipe you for 700, you don't pull back in time often.

Personally, I think the ability is just a little bit too strong, but I'd want to play more before really getting vocal about it.

3. Spit: Another controversally good ability. It definitely packs a wallop over 10 seconds. Arguments for 'too strong':

It does more total damage than any other direct damage ability in the game.

Non-sensically effects towers

Unlike other powerful direct damage (hammer slam, mines) there are few ways to counter the spit

Comes from a character supposedly weak at range, yet allows them to be powerful without getting into actual melee combat.

Arguments saying it's okay:

While spit is hard to get rid of, you CAN get rid of it. Sedna's level 3 heal, oaks invuln, and a few other effects will actually remove the poison over time effect in addition to their other effects

Unlike true direct damage abilities, it gives the target time to scroll, potion, etc before taking the full effect.

Has a comparatively high mana cost

Unlike other 7 second DD's, it doesn't stack well if chain cast (poison damage isn't additive).

All I really got for now. I think there are some balance problems on maps (why are the regen crystal flags not the same?) but these are the only abilities I've had worries about myself. Curious to hear other peoples views.

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Health regen is not powerful in a fight. If you're complaining about 100 HPs you really need to um... figure wtf you're doing wrong to make you do less than 100dps. Usually DPS is around 350 when someone has 100hps.

It's more bulwark taht's too good and should be rebalanced as a 8000gold item like I've said.. since having 50-60% armor is doubling the effect of HPS basically.

Heart of life is only a bit too good. It's more that most of the activatable items aren't good enough. Heart of life is simply one of the only other good option besides wand of speed and consumables. What Zechnophobe said is right. "Either a very extreme casting time, or a limitation such as 'cannot move, attack, or use abilities' while under its effects." Like I've said..a 1.5 sec cast time or something would make it so you can't easily get it off just by running faster than someone and be able to turn right around 10 seconds later and kill them.

I think the best way to "balance" snipe would be to put a crosshairs icon over someones head when they are targeted that says "use health potion". Snipes damage(500-1300 or so) with a 15 second recharge is VERY low. That's almost 1/3rd what some other primary skills are. It's just very unexpected to people. But really, I don't find this nessisary. That might actually make snipe too bad.

People need to complain about the game less(snipe and spit) and learn how to play it(use potion against these). Whenever I'm facing UB or regulas, I get potions, because I'm not going to be caught with under 1k health when i'm retreating. I can't counter hammerslam with potions like this, I counter it with moving behind or interupts. People need to learn to play the game, not complain about not knowing how to play it.

It does more total damage than any other direct damage ability in the game.

Non-sensically effects towers

Unlike other powerful direct damage (hammer slam, mines) there are few ways to counter the spit

While spit is hard to get rid of, you CAN get rid of it. Sedna's level 3 heal, oaks invuln, and a few other effects will actually remove the poison over time effect in addition to their other effects

All your points are perfect, you hit the nail on the head. I couldn't really be bothered to explain it as well..

But one thing that's wrong.. "it does more damage than any otehr direct damage ability in the game" I find this wrong because of how it doesn't stack.

With a +15% flag, cooldown item, whatever, pounce is better although it's melee. Fireball can reach 1350, but even at lvl 4 it's 1050.

But lets compare it to FB.. it's a good comparison. FB doesn't have the "Stack" problem, it has 5 more yard range which is a huge benefit, and will do much more damage the more cooldown items you have.

An ability that does 10,000 damage isn't much good if it does that damage over 1 hour as you can do something between now and hte time it'd kill you to stop it.

Also you left out major things to get rid of it.. The is a consumable(which I think costs too much. It should be an activatable item imo.), potions, and tele to building scrolls. These are all very cheap(can afford at start) which counter it.

I've never died more than once in a match from UB's spit.. on the other hand, I've killed lots of people fleeing with it.

The only issue with spit is that it can target buildings, and MAYBE the cast time. (not anything you can do with stopping a 0.3 ranged cast. Fireball is 1.0 sec.. Though I'm not really sure this is a big issue)

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I officially declare this thread forfeit.

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Yeah need to be more objective.

And misinformation doesn't help (Erebus doesn't gain health while in mist unless you heart of life before it, unless they fixed that. In beta HoL right before mist worked and if you were REALLY fast at hitting keys you could do it in the middle of a fight.)

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Quoting innociv,

reply 10

Yeah need to be more objective.

And misinformation doesn't help (Erebus doesn't gain health while in mist unless you heart of life before it, unless they fixed that. In beta HoL right before mist worked and if you were REALLY fast at hitting keys you could do it in the middle of a fight.)

Yeah, my bad. It seems I was wrong about Erebus ( I did some testing to verify); I'm positive that I've seen him heal while in mist form, but it could have been the heart of life, or I could be wrong.

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I dunno... I kinda think spit sould have 100-200 damage shaved off from the max level. UB can go in and deal more damage as it's active, anyways. It's more like double DPS if you don't spend bunch of gold on this one item. I'm not too thrilled about picking a different favor item to counter one of three or more enemies, either.

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Potions are 275 gold. The debuffs removers are 250(this item needs a buff of being an activatible item or to cost less.. not spit a nerf.)

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