Hypothesis: Sedna is the absolute best demigod in 1v1

Ever since playing against Antiock, currently the top ranking player in Demigod, in a pre-1.1 Crucible match a couple of weeks ago, I've been rather curious about his habit of hosting 1v1 matches as Sedna, either on Crucible or Prison.  After putting a little bit of thought into it, as well as hosting a couple matches of similar conditions out, myself, I've come up with a theory that Antiock does this because he's guaranteed to win since Sedna is THE best demigod for 1v1 matches, hence why he's Rank 1 on the Pantheon stats.

In a 1v1 match, assuming either Crucible or Prison, one player will win if he manages to kill his opposition a lot early on, therefore getting a lot of gold to increase his advantage even more.  If both sides are competent, though, then kills will be very minimal, if there's any at all, and other methods would have to be considered to gain the advantage.  These methods are generally as follows:

  • Stay on the frontline as long as possible with enough health for you to be effective.
  • Force your opponent to be away from the frontline as much as possible, whether that's making him retreat to the protection of his towers or all the way back to his Citadel.  Bonus if he spends gold on teleport scrolls or potions.
  • Mantain control of the majority (not necessarily all) of neutral flags with greatest priority on the gold/artifact flag.
  • Be able to attack towers while maintaining health when the opposition is absent.

In other words, the best way to win 1v1 is not necessarily to get kills, but to simply outtank your opponent, and we all know that noone can tank better than Sedna.  As her, you're obviously able to maintain enough health to be effective on the frontline through Heal and Priest minions.  This makes returning to the Citadel only a matter of when mana is slow, which is easily remedied by a few mana-boosting items.  It also means that when it comes to exchanging blows with your opponent, you'll generally outlast him, forcing him to run away.  While actually killing him would be nice, the more important aspect of his retreat is that you have free rain over the neutral zone, gaining control of the flags (especially the gold/artifact one), and being able to hit his towers while he's absent.  There's also a point to make that Sedna is an effective tower killer, as well, even in the early game, tanking the tower with Heal and also killing it quickly with Pounce.  A lot of damage can be done to structures when the opponent is just making a round trip to the Citadel, especially on Crucible.

If you're able to have constant control over the gold/artifact flag, then you'll be accumulating a bigger and bigger gold advantage as time goes on, an especially good aspect since 1v1s tend to be long.  Antiock knows this for sure, as I saw him actually pass by the cooldown flag under my control just to cap the gold flag and agressively keeps me away from it as much as possible.  The gold advantage is even greater if the opponent spends money on teleport scrolls and potions since such consumables aren't worth it in the long run.  As for you (Sedna), the cash should first be spent perfecting your frontline lasting power.  When I played Antiock in pre-1.1, he started with Monks and notably got the Heart of Life very early for its mana regen, but since he's still apparently winning all of his 1v1s to this day, I imagine that he has found alternative early items to achieve the same goal of always having mana to use Heal (and Pounce).  Getting Currency I is also important, as the match will most certainly last long enough to give back its cost several times over.  You can linger in the neutral area for as long as your gold income is greater than his with Currency I and the gold flag.  In fact, you might as well do so until you hit War Rank 8 and can instantly upgrade all the way up to Catapults with all the gold massed while prolonging the match, with Giants following as soon as possible.  Then you can really overwhelm your opponent as you push in to finally bring down his Citadel.  At this point, the gold advantage will be so great that it doesn't even matter if your opponent significantly outlevels you while holding back the creep waves and manages to kill you a couple of times.  He's inevitably screwed.

So what do you guys have to say about this theory of mine.  Do you agree that Sedna is the #1 1v1 demigod with these strategies in mind, or do you have other ideas?  Bonus if I can hear from Antiock, himself, or his close premade buddy Foreshadowed.

12,785 views 64 replies
Reply #1 Top

Erebus can drive her off.

Reply #2 Top

Yes. Antiock is a great player, and I agree, Sedna is the most powerful demigod for 1v1. I've started playing with him and foreshadowed. When both sides are greatly skilled and hard to kill, the path to victory is endurance and outleveling the enemy by pushing him back to his health crystal.

 

Erebus cannot beat Sedna 1v1 if both are equally skilled and equally gear. Healing wind and counter healing would definitely pull this fight in Sedna's favor.

Reply #3 Top

Antiock and I have done maybe 100 or more games together,

Hes got a good sedna build and has alot of practise, hes definetly the best sedna ive seen.

We 1v1d, I went UB for shits and giggles, the game was even for the most part I had 4 deaths, he had 6, but he held the flags longer then me and got to giants sooner. Pretty sure I would've had the game if I had held the artifact hut grrr. Oh, this was pre HoL change btw

 

and no Sedna isnt the best for 1v1 matches. QoT minion build is. QoT minion build is in my opinion unbeatable, Ground Spike is devastating.

 

feel free to ask for the vent info the 3 of us use, pop in, chat, ask questions or w/e

 

hey Puppet :moon:

 

-Foreshadowed 

Reply #5 Top

Who plays 1v1? Besides this troll statement, I will continue to real point of why I posted :P

Sedna disadvantages:

- Lack of AOE: Getting to priests early or running her over with minions will seriously dent her (think Oak spirits). After 1.1 patch people get Priests a lot sooner than usual. They are now a very strong upgrade. Unless Sedna wants to go Yeti? :)

- Survivability reliant on heals: Stunning/silencing/raising cooldowns on a Sedna. This is a very strong tactic against all support classes. Capturing a Sedna with a stun or ruining one of her heal routines will screw up her day, big time (count till 6-7 seconds after heal and apply stun/silence/whatever).

- DPS scales but heals don't: A good Rook/UB player will give any Sedna player a real hard time, especially in 1v1. You can't do much against a stun+hammer combo while having all his Archers/ToL/Treb pounding on your ass (this alone does alot of damage). So you can mitigate the damage with some heals but at some point you are going to need to stop and hit your enemy. Plus, UB late game damage is huge and cannot be mitigated by Sedna heals (huge DPS with Ooze alone), especially if the UB counts 6-7 seconds after Sedna heals herself and then stuns in anticipation to stop her heal.

Regardless of these 3 points, current maps are not built for 1v1. I wouldn't say sedna is best for 1v1 in a 3v3 game for instance. The strategy is different.

 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting maxxy, reply 5
Who plays 1v1? Besides this troll statement, I will continue to real point of why I posted

Sedna disadvantages:

- Lack of AOE: Getting to priests early or running her over with minions will seriously dent her (think Oak spirits). After 1.1 patch people get Priests a lot sooner than usual. They are now a very strong upgrade. Unless Sedna wants to go Yeti?

- Survivability reliant on heals: Stunning/silencing/raising cooldowns on a Sedna. This is a very strong tactic against all support classes. Capturing a Sedna with a stun or ruining one of her heal routines will screw up her day, big time (count till 6-7 seconds after heal and apply stun/silence/whatever).

- DPS scales but heals don't: A good Rook/UB player will give any Sedna player a real hard time, especially in 1v1. You can't do much against a stun+hammer combo while having all his Archers/ToL/Treb pounding on your ass (this alone does alot of damage). So you can mitigate the damage with some heals but at some point you are going to need to stop and hit your enemy. Plus, UB late game damage is huge and cannot be mitigated by Sedna heals (huge DPS with Ooze alone), especially if the UB counts 6-7 seconds after Sedna heals herself and then stuns in anticipation to stop her heal.

Regardless of these 3 points, current maps are not built for 1v1. I wouldn't say sedna is best for 1v1 in a 3v3 game for instance. The strategy is different.

 
End of maxxy's quote

 

 

you kids who post "points" and "facts" are useless

Reply #7 Top

you kids who post "points" and "facts" are useless
End of quote
You rule man. I wish my epeen was the size of yours.

Reply #8 Top
double post
Reply #9 Top
Very short summary: Yes for early game, no on late game depending on DG I have a lot of successes with health stacked UB on Ooze built. I can out last sedna in 1v1 and force her to retreat, and if teammate is around when she retreats, we cane even kill her.
Reply #10 Top

Im sorry but thats just not true. Most dmg comes from pounce, so ooze is a lot less effective, ooze UB's dmg is constant so its easily healed.

I played a game with the top 1 and 3 custom and ladder players one of them being UB, my two teammates feeded him so much, that he had slayer wraps 5k and the like and was 2 lvl's higher than me. He still needed 3 potions to drive me off, if it had been a fair fight than I would surely have won.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 10
Im sorry but thats just not true. Most dmg comes from pounce, so ooze is a lot less effective, ooze UB's dmg is constant so its easily healed.

I played a game with the top 1 and 3 custom and ladder players one of them being UB, my two teammates feeded him so much, that he had slayer wraps 5k and the like and was 2 lvl's higher than me. He still needed 3 potions to drive me off, if it had been a fair fight than I would surely have won.
End of lifekatana's quote

 

what the fuck did you just say....? lol

 

Reply #12 Top
LOL

I suggest you try ooze and read the ability description

Also, that UB you mentioned may not have maxed ooze (may have spit)

You may be able to out heal UB just using heal, but you won't out damage him with pounce only. Ooze decreases enemy attack speed by 40% or so at max level. If you rely on pounce for burst damage, since AA is useless, you would sacrifice mana which is vital for heal. Ooze also completely nullifies healing wind and on top of that reduce AA speed.

Good UB players also not rely on potion, the time potion casts is better spend on actually attacking the enemy (For a health stacked UB a potion healing meagre 750 HP is useless). With slayer's wrap and Narmith's ring (Life steal) that's even more true. A good UB foul grasps sedna as she tries to heal (and doing so heals UB itself). Although the cast time is low, it's not impossible due to the pre-animation.
Reply #13 Top

prison 1v1 vs oak+spirits... mh yay that was a gay cup game :D

 

conclusion -> there are no overpowered DGs

 

realy ive played sedna alot, shes a quite good supporter, her pounces can cause some burst, but with your weak autoattack...mh gee there are alot DGs out who whip her ass :/

Reply #14 Top

I'm sorry, wait, you used the rankings? Fail.

Reply #15 Top

Yes yes, the rankings are made of fail. But these guys were really pretty good.  1st ladder and custom.

 

I did read the ability descryption smartass, it says it decreases autoattack speed by 40% and since Pounce is not autoattack... Also it does not nullify healing wind, where the fuck did you get that from? Healing(1500 every 7 sec) plus healing wind powered preist heal(1200-1600 every 8 sec) is around 400 hps, plus healing wind, plus natural hps and inner grace. You're never gonna outdps that.   

 

I indeed lost the battle(like in running away) to lack of mana, but this had more to do with his potion spam and superior lvl and gear than anything. And he actually used robust hp potions just after I had used pounce. :D   Pretty good item really. Its pretty hard foullgrasping an healling Sedna, I wouldn't rely on it actually.  Now maybe you have some sick micro reaction and micro skills, but I havent seen this happen a lot or even at all. 

Now before we fall into theorycraft, I'm not a very good Sedna so I'm not really qualified to discuss this with you, but I've seen some Sedna's who would surely not get driven off by an Ooze Beast.

 

 

 

P.S. if it ooze really beats Sedna handsdown, it would be pretty OP imho, because that would make it the best dueller and it still would have some sicks dps to kill pretty much anybody.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #16 Top
I would not say Ooze build pwn Sedna. Actually they are evenly matched. But Ooze build pwns any other DG except Rook with tower spam at early levels only, while Sedna does in some case but is less effective at killing (especially vs QoT) rather than lane staying. This makes Ooze build actually superior. With Ooze due to AoE damage, your priest actually do not always heal you. They sometime heal themselves and creeps. I was saying Ooze nullify the Healing wind effect of HP regen, not its effect to priests. With Slayer's wraps, inner beast as well as maybe Bestial Wrath, it's very possible to outdps Sedna's heal if foul grasp by luck interrupts heal at least once out of 3 casts.
Reply #17 Top

I think that Sedna is by far the best 1v1 DG.

Yeah, you can come up with a small number of DGs and builds that will beat it late in the game.  But all those probably get beaten soundly early in the game, so you will be coming from WAY behind.  An Ooze UB is going to get murdered early on and will be many war ranks behind, not to mention levels since it will be forced out of lanes and back to the crystal (or spending money on pots) while the Sedna wont.

The unbalanced thing I find about Sedna is that her heals are way too hard to interrupt.  They really should be made so that a moderately skilled player can consistently do something about them with the appropriate skills.

Reply #18 Top
An Ooze UB is going to get murdered early on and will be many war ranks behind, not to mention levels since it will be forced out of lanes and back to the crystal (or spending money on pots) while the Sedna wont.
End of quote

You got to be kidding me. Early level Sedna is not hard to counter with Ooze UB, nor it is easy for Sedna to outclass UB either. Mana is enough for 2 heals but when she heals UB's AA cuts the effectiveness by 25%. I don't have any problem against Sedna and forcing her to retreat at early games. Yes she can come back after she heal but she will not murder UB as you said. UB can move to another lane to farm and nor he needs to go back to crystal often either.

It is mid-level Sedna that gives UB problem due to the ability to spam pounce and heal at the same time, but definitely not early game. Problem I meant inability for UB to kill, not problem as in danger to UB getting killed.
Reply #19 Top

Quoting AnnihilatorX,
You got to be kidding me. Early level Sedna is not hard to counter with Ooze UB, nor it is easy for Sedna to outclass UB either. Mana is enough for 2 heals but when she heals UB's AA cuts the effectiveness by 25%. I don't have any problem against Sedna and forcing her to retreat at early games. Yes she can come back after she heal but she will not murder UB as you said. UB can move to another lane to farm and nor he needs to go back to crystal often either. 

 

It is mid-level Sedna that gives UB problem due to the ability to spam pounce and heal at the same time, but definitely not early game. Problem I meant inability for UB to kill, not problem as in danger to UB getting killed.

End of AnnihilatorX's quote

You have clearly not played against a good Sedna. I assure you that Sedna with monk idols will outlast UB every single time, and will never, ever, ever be in danger of dying. She will drive you away with autoattacks, yes, despite Ooze. You will be able to run away, heal, and come back, but the same thing will happen again. Odds are she might have to actually cast heal once per battle before you run away, which means that she will only have to return to base when she wants to shop. I play Sedna, and it happens in almost every game I play. Some hotshot UB/Ere/Oak or w/e thinks he can duel me 1v1 in the early/mid and I always think to myself, "he just doesn't get it, does he?"

@OP: I agree that Sedna is the best duelist in the early/midgame, for the reasons you stated. Late game she is still pretty good, surpassed by at most 3 or 4 builds (certain types of Oaks, Beasts). However, as Sedna you will typically have massive war rank, gold, and xp advantage, so those builds rarely come to fruition. These are reasons I play Sedna. 

I don't play 1v1s, as I don't think its really what this game is balanced for and honestly I think most games would come down to me stomping everyone who doesn't understand that Sedna is better than them, like Antiock does. It should be noted, though, that Sedna's properties apply not only in 1v1, but also 2v2s and 3v3s, where there is often micro-duels for lane and flag supremacy. Sedna's early dominance, combined with a not-too-shabby end-game, makes her a critical part of any organized team, imho. 

Reply #20 Top
You have clearly not played against a good Sedna. I assure you that Sedna with monk idols will outlast UB every single time, and will never, ever, ever be in danger of dying. She will drive you away with autoattacks, yes, despite Ooze. You will be able to run away, heal, and come back, but the same thing will happen again. Odds are she might have to actually cast heal once per battle before you run away, which means that she will only have to return to base when she wants to shop. I play Sedna, and it happens in almost every game I play. Some hotshot UB/Ere/Oak or w/e thinks he can duel me 1v1 in the early/mid and I always think to myself, "he just doesn't get it, does he?"
End of quote
The same can be said that you have no played against a good UB. It's however not easy to compare as it depends a lot on starting items and favor items, and whether Sedna prioritised on Pounce or Heal. Below lv 4 heal I and pounce I is an insufficient condition to outlast an UB with Ooze. It all comes down to who retreat first and what starting item is for both of them. If monks were used, it depends on whether the monks are in range of the Ooze as well. I desagree with you stating that Sedna would outlast Ooze UB below Lv 4 every single time.
I don't play 1v1s, as I don't think its really what this game is balanced for and honestly I think most games would come down to me stomping everyone who doesn't understand that Sedna is better than them, like Antiock does. It should be noted, though, that Sedna's properties apply not only in 1v1, but also 2v2s and 3v3s, where there is often micro-duels for lane and flag supremacy. Sedna's early dominance, combined with a not-too-shabby end-game, makes her a critical part of any organized team, imho.
End of quote
I agree. Sedna starts to shine versus Ooze UB when partnered with a teammate.
Reply #21 Top

Yeah, thats kind of the thing.  Sedna is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, 1v1 DGs.  And she might be even better in many cases in 2v2 and 3v3s.

"XXX is OP" posts are lame, but I've kind of wanted to start one about Sedna.  If you have a game full of average players, Sedna is just fine.  But in the hands of really good players, Sedna just dominates much more than any DG I've ever seen.

Another big issue is how many Sedna + X combos there are (assuming that Sedna and X are both skilled).  Oak + Sedna is impossible because you cant kill either one.  UB + Sedna is impossible because the damage and healing mean you arent going to win.  Rook + Sedna means that you have absolutely no chance of pushing them off the lane etc.  In late game scenarios you can overwhelm the Sedna healing, but the game is usually over by then anyway.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Foreshadowed, reply 3
and no Sedna isnt the best for 1v1 matches. QoT minion build is. QoT minion build is in my opinion unbeatable, Ground Spike is devastating.
End of Foreshadowed's quote

An interesting counterargument... I'm assuming that your idea of this QoT minion build is one that prioritizes Summon Shambler, Bramble Shield, Ground Spikes, and Mulch Shamble, along with having a full set of at least basic minions.  While a late game version of this will surely outmatch a Sedna on an even playing field, I have to wonder if it will stand in the early game to press the advantage, as well, especially considering that it sounds even more mana-dependent than Sedna, having four abilities to use.  I'm interested in hearing more about this particular matchup.

As for UB, particularly the ooze variety in which I have experience playing as, I don't think that it is able to outlast Sedna even at the start, providing that she has Monks and Blood of the Fallen (Antiock's favor item of choice, I believe).  In fact, I don't think anything can.  And although it is technically possible to use Foul Grasp (and other such interrupts) to prevent Sedna from using Heal, which would surely ruin her day, I believe it's more of a matter of luck and a good guess at when she's going to try to Heal, rather than something that can be used reliably, even if you do have the ability cursor hanging right over her in anticipation.

And while it is nice for you to offer me the chance to interview you and Antiock, Foreshadowed, I'd prefer it if Antiock was to post here, himself, to talk about how he uses Sedna, rather than me having to relay the information from vent to here.  I'm sure you'll be mentioning this post to him, anyway.  In addition, I'm also curious to hear about what exactly motivates him to do what he does (ie, almost exclusively play premade with you and Puppet, then falling back to 1v1s when you guys aren't around).

Reply #23 Top

An interesting counterargument... I'm assuming that your idea of this QoT minion build is one that prioritizes Summon Shambler, Bramble Shield, Ground Spikes, and Mulch Shamble, along with having a full set of at least basic minions.  While a late game version of this will surely outmatch a Sedna on an even playing field, I have to wonder if it will stand in the early game to press the advantage, as well, especially considering that it sounds even more mana-dependent than Sedna, having four abilities to use.  I'm interested in hearing more about this particular matchup.
End of quote

I'm certainly not on the 1v1 circuit, but I have used a QoT minion build extensively.  It is heavily mana dependent, so it works better on +15 mana maps and with +mana favor.  Without either of those or a Vlemish Faceguard, it's nearly impossible to actually resummon shamblers in the field, even if you use your abilities sparingly.

 The real strength against a Sedna duelist is that it is more than possible to out attrition Sedna if you play smart, and your longer range everything means you have decent control of the fight. Your shield can soak an equivalent pounce, meaning Sedna cannot just dart in and out until you are dead - she has to stay and take whatever punishment you're handing out if she hopes to actually hurt you.  And you have awesome no-mana AOE between Closed form and Shamblers.

The downside of course is that Sedna is going to be simply faster than you are.  So you have to be keep your minions ahead of you and if you don't think you can take Sedna in the field, you HAVE to run...NOW. It's simply not practical to outrun a Sedna duelist once they close to melee - they use too many speed boosts. For this reason a Cloak of Night is probably a good choice, even if it only offers a minor +mana benefit.

I will note that I find it completely impractical to push more than one 'spell' tree by level 10. You need Entourage for your Shamblers - at least, if your shamblers are meant to fight rather than become health potions. There is too much strain on your quantity of skill points to do anything but max out either shield or ground spikes.

Reply #24 Top

He's hosting 1v1 matches on a team game playing on the two worst maps in the game. Of course he's going to get a good win record. I'm not saying he's not good, but if you get to number one playing the game on bad maps in a 1v1, you can't really say he's the #1 player in the game; he's setting everything up for his advantage.

There's also the "host quits game, it doesn't get counted" bug I've heard about, but I've never encountered it so I have no clue if it's true; I'm pretty sure it's not, but I've heard rumors.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting AnnihilatorX,
The same can be said that you have no played against a good UB. It's however not easy to compare as it depends a lot on starting items and favor items, and whether Sedna prioritised on Pounce or Heal. Below lv 4 heal I and pounce I is an insufficient condition to outlast an UB with Ooze. It all comes down to who retreat first and what starting item is for both of them. If monks were used, it depends on whether the monks are in range of the Ooze as well. I desagree with you stating that Sedna would outlast Ooze UB below Lv 4 every single time.
End of AnnihilatorX's quote

I would believe you if not for the mountain of first-hand experience I have defeating UBs 1v1 early game, and the complete lopsidedness of all of those encounters. Just for your benefit, my friend and I just labbed it out. 1v1, Ooze UB with Banded + Scaled + BotF vs Sedna with Monk Idols + BotF + Heal. We met in the center of prison and literally wailed on eachother until someone dropped. Sedna won with 715 HP remaining. I had to cast heal twice. I'll point out that a flat brawl is the most favorable type of battle UB can hope for, because cat and mouse of any kind would only give the monks more time to heal. Thus in a Cataract lane UB would fare even worse because Sedna could wear him down gradually and let her monks do most of the heavy lifting.