Ke5trel Ke5trel

Simplest Demigod Balance Tweaks

Simplest Demigod Balance Tweaks

3 hours of work for GPG, months of enjoyment for players

The following small tweaks would go a long way to open up the state of play across the board. 

Some of these changes are more complex, of course, but I tried hard to keep it to the numbers so it would be an afternoon's work for GPG or a couple of days for a modder. 

I found some of this stuff in other people's posts, so all credit to them:

Gameplay:

1.  Nerf BotF to 600 HP and 4 hps
2.  All values on the Assassin stats skill line increased 20%
3.  All values on the General morale skill line increased 10%
4.  Decrease sigil active time 25%
5.  Idol Minotaur health increased scaling 15%
6.  Idol Priest heal cooldown increased 4 seconds

DGs

1.  QoT's Spike Wave functions as an AoE interrupt along path of wave
2.  QoT's Bramble Shield lowers mana cost at level 4 a la Rook's PoT
3.  DA and QoT baseline health increased scaling 10% 
4.  DA's mana regen increased 15%
5.  DA baseline autoattack damage increased scaling 10%
6.  DA's Warp Area can hit a single target up to three times when no other targets available
7.  Reg's Mark of the Betrayer interrupts enemy abilities when it is cast
8.  TB's form switch animation from ice to fire accelerated to 0.2
9.  Sedna's Yeti baseline speed increased 15%
10.  Range on all levels of Erb's Bat Swarm decreased by 15%
11.  Erb's minion baseline health decreased scaling 10%
12.  Rook speed increased 0.1
13.  UB speed decreased 0.1
14.  Occulus Blast Off ability functions as range 5 AoE interrupt at point of impact
15.  Stun/Interrupt immunity on Oak's Shield available starting at skill level 4

On the balance stuff you can see my biases here.  Since June or so the high-level metagame has revolved around healthstacking + monks + sigils + demigods who have interrupts and stuns.  Every DG who doesn't fit into the above formula needs to be played at a much higher level to compete, regardless of their other abilities.  Something's gotta give.

Gameplay Rationale -

HP stacking is nerfed a bit with BotF and Sigil changes .  Without revamping the idol priest mechanic completely I thought the best way to mitigate the advantage they present would be to increase the cooldown between heals, which will make burst damage more effective.  Stats and morale become more viable as build lines.  Idol minotaurs become more effective as tanks.

DG rationale -

Reg, QoT, and Occ get interrupts.  QoT gets a bit more health and a big mana bonus to lategame shield.  Erb has a slightly lower escape window.  UB has a slightly lower speed advantage.  Yetis might still be useless, but at least they move faster.  TB gets a faster form switch, which makes dancing less frustrating.  DA gets some buffs, which he needs to stay competitive.  Rook and Occ get a bit of speed, which makes the curve shallower for new or intermediate players.  Oak needs to invest a bit more and a bit later to get his invincible portal lock on. 

What I'm going for is an across-the-board shift in balance away from straight HP stacked teams of UB+Erb+Random and toward a more diverse set of playstyles and strategies.  The secondary objective is to make this balance change as easy to absorb for the developers as possible. 

With that in mind, if someone wanted to make an elegant mod which incorporated all of these balance changes, or at least the complex ones like adding an interrupt to Spike Wave, that would be truly awesome, and it would make any integration into the official build that much faster.  

If you have any thoughts on this stuff please feel free, but KISS - keep it simple, stupid - changing the numbers slightly is easy to implement and balance, completely rebuilding and rebalancing a given ability or mechanic is hard

Thanks for reading
Kestrel

19,642 views 49 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 22
Let's just ignore everything that has been said and simplify this from a bird's eye view.

FACTS

The generals vs. assassins pantheon is a joke, and every player realizes that the assassins have no chance

Priests give the generals enormous survivability.

It is commonly accepted that a team is not viable without at least one general.

Out of the top three demigods, only one is an assassin.
End of Splitshadow's quote

I don't think generals are stronger than assassins in and out of themselves.

HOWEVER, every team should have at least one general. That is what is doing the difference in Pantheon. Not characters, team composition.

I'm pretty sure a team of 2UB+2Oak > team of 2Erebus + 2 Oak.

but a team of 2UB+2UB < team of 2Erebus + 2 UB.

Reply #27 Top

No no no.

 

Queen is just as good if not better than sedna/rook. 

Reply #28 Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 27
No no no.

 

Queen is just as good if not better than sedna/rook. 
End of lifekatana's quote
Ridiculous. There's no way QoT can hold a lane against two top players.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 27
No no no.

 

Queen is just as good if not better than sedna/rook. 
End of lifekatana's quote

If you think so, then please, enlighten the rest of us to why. >_>

Edit: Added quote cause I got ninja posted.

Reply #30 Top

*cough*

Regardless of the merits of various dgs, at this point it's clear that every dg needs at least an interrupt, if not a stun

 

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Ke5trel, reply 30
*cough*

Regardless of the merits of various dgs, at this point it's clear that every dg needs at least an interrupt, if not a stun

 
End of Ke5trel's quote
/agree

Reply #32 Top

Not needed. It would be nice yes, but I rather would have a more diverse selection of demigods.

 

Sedna can't hold against two players either, and a rook only against weak pushers. 

 

A queen can push harder than sedna, does more damage(or lets others do so) has way way better minions and can rougly imitate sednas heal with shield(though it still sucks).

Queen can push harder than rook(with support), does more damage, has monks/minions and has shield and ofc is more mobile.

 

Sure she doesnt have a stun(rook roll) or super burst(hammer) but she can still push very hard with spikes+minions. Sedna has silence pounce and heal, but thats it. She has no dmg to speak of save for a weak alpha strike(weak as in not as usefull as bite or pent).

Reply #33 Top

I smell a troll. Of course sedna can't hold against two players, no demigod can indefinitely hold in a 2v1 situation. The rook is THE BEST lane controller of all. He is capable of putting up 8 towers, he has the highest natural health, he has a long duration stun on a short cooldown, he has aoe damage that lets him fight 2v1. Not to mention, with an orb of defiance he can force enemies to back up or face his tower farm.  My grandmother pushes harder than the queen of thorns.

Reply #34 Top

My queen against your rook. We'll see.

 

Spikes kill towers faster than you can possibly build them.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 34
My queen against your rook. We'll see.

 

Spikes kill towers faster than you can possibly build them.
End of lifekatana's quote

Until you get Boulder Rolled :-/

Reply #36 Top

I wanna see that replay.

Reply #37 Top

You're probably a better player than me lifekatana, but you'd be at enough of a disadvantage by choosing the queen. By the way, I don't build tower farms passed level 4.  In my experience with the queen, she runs in with a shield, deals some damage, the shield falls, her health bar drops by half in 1.5 seconds, and she is forced to retreat.  She can do pretty well by maintaining a shield early game, but later she's cannon fodder.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 37
You're probably a better player than me lifekatana, but you'd be at enough of a disadvantage by choosing the queen. By the way, I don't build tower farms passed level 4.  In my experience with the queen, she runs in with a shield, deals some damage, the shield falls, her health bar drops by half in 1.5 seconds, and she is forced to retreat.  She can do pretty well by maintaining a shield early game, but later she's cannon fodder.
End of Splitshadow's quote

 

Sounds like we've played together before...

Reply #39 Top

Fine. I'll write a guide on it. God.

 

Anyway drop health to half in 1.5 secs? These queens didn't know how to stack hp. You should have around 5k+ at level 10, and I see a lot of qot's who for some reason totally negate hp.

Reply #40 Top

5k health, your shield drops, boulder roll -> hammer slam, a couple arrows later you're ~2.5k health.

Reply #41 Top

Fight Fight Fight Fight

Reply #42 Top

5k hp-> Hammerroll is 1900+ shoulder and a few slams, thats lets say 2500. Minus shield 1k-1.5k. Heal mulch/monks.

Reply #43 Top

Splishadow, when are you online? Maybe we can play a game.

Reply #44 Top

I feel like a broken record but...

Replay! :D

Reply #45 Top

Last day of vacation, so I'm not going to be on very much past today.

Reply #46 Top

Hehe me too. 


and yes Teseer you'll get your replay.

Reply #48 Top

First I had RL, then I got game state errors with most of my replays and now gamereplays.org is down. X(  

Reply #49 Top

Replay Parser: Could not determine an army for the player InYourFace. The replay was not saved, please make sure you are uploading a valid replay and try again.

 

 

WTF? Yes InYourFace was a play in the enemy team, but I have no clue why I can't upload the replay??