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Brad’s Beta 3-B Walkthru Part 2

Brad’s Beta 3-B Walkthru Part 2

This is both a walkthru and my critique of where we are on the game.

This is going to get updated a lot as I go through this so keep refreshing.

The New Economy

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We definitely listened to your feedback. After considering the reports and lots of prototyping we came up with a significantly better, more original, more interesting way to run your Kingdom/Empire.

The world of Elemental is populated with many resources. Admittedly, the screenshot above represents one of those really lucky moments where there’s a lot of resources together but it does illustrate the way things work now very well.

Cities no longer produce resources on their own beyond the absolute most basic research, materials, and arcane knowledge.

The action comes from the very finite number of resources scattered about the world that you can now make use of if they are within your territory. If a resource is in your territory, just click on it and choose build. You don’t have to create any special units to make use of it.

The most common resources are:

  1. Fertile Land.  Produces Food
  2. Old Growth Forests. Produces Materials.
  3. Lost Libraries. Produces Knowledge
  4. Ancient Temples. Produces Arcane Lore
  5. Gold. Produces (well gold)

Your settlements don’t produce these things anymore in any real amount. Instead, the improvements improve upon these resources.

So a market doesn’t produce gildars anymore. It provides a bonus % to the existing production of any resources associated with that settlement.

Magical Speed Up

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A Dangerous World

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There are other things in the world trying to ruin you besides other factions. And they will if you’re not careful.

Tactical Battles

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These need more polish (for instance, the movement tiles are far too opaque), the sound is highly iffy, and the overall play tuning still needs work.

Combat & Conquest

The conquest technology tree continues to be an issue in the beta. Too long to get boring stuff. This is something that is high on our list to do something about.  It just takes way too long to get the conquest stuff going.

I’m 37 turns into my game and I have no armor items and my only decent weapon is a boar spear.

Diplomacy

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Diplomacy is coming along nicely. Of all the aspects of Elemental that still need work, this is the area that seems to be potentially the most interesting.  Unlike GalCiv which was goblygook, Elemental’s diplomacy system is much more straight forward and provides a lot more potential opportunities for trading.

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213,179 views 118 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting _PawelS_, reply 25
What is "diplomatic capital"?

Wasta.

The ability to affect the situation through force of will or reputation alone.  At least, that is kind of my interpretation.

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 19

Quoting pad152, reply 17Magical System - Start spells

Therel doesn't seem to be a spell level vs. character level system, a level 1 user can learn and use the same spells as a level 5 character. I'm still not sure this is balanced, will be see a level 1 magic user be able to take down a level 10 magic user?

AFAIK damage spells scale with the intelligence stat. A level 10 caster should be doing more damage with fireball then a level 1 caster, but a level 10 melee sovereign probably won't because they'll be investing in other stats instead.

This is true and good for spells that scale with int - as far as I know, this covers all damage spells and a few others (like stone skin). Unfortunately a lot of spells don't scale with int, which leads to the problem of a level 1 sovereign (or a level 10 melee sovereign with no investment in caster stats) casting them as well as your level 10 caster with 24 int. The 10 may be stronger than the 1 in direct spell-vs.-spell combat, but the 1's summoned critter is just as good, as are the buffs he puts on his army, and he can level mountains and raise volcanoes just as well - this makes int feel like a waste whenever you're casting a spell that doesn't directly do damage.

I think more spells should be affected by int; base the effectiveness of all buffs on it, have it make your summoned critters stronger, and so on. This would better emphasize the difference between those that have spent 10 levels improving their casting and those that haven't.

[But I haven't played a caster in a while, I'm going off memory - if more spells have already been changed to scale with int, so much the better.]

Reply #28 Top

I'm very happy with speeding up the game, for instance magic learning, research etc. One thing that I loved in Master of Magic was how every turn at the beginning is very important, things start out fast and if you make a bad mistake your game is probably over or it will take a big stroke of luck to get back to an advantage. Making the monsters aggressive and adding "world diff" helps with that too. Good stuff.

 

Quoting Annatar11, reply 24

Quoting CapnWinky, reply 21Is there any plans to change the font to something more "Fantasy" like? Zoomed out map mode, diplomacy screen, pop-up messages etc.

I sure hope so. I don't like to read Word documents in my games with Times New Roman.

 

Hopefully the fonts are customizable, I would think they are with the depth of modding tools in Elemental.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 19


AFAIK damage spells scale with the intelligence stat. A level 10 caster should be doing more damage with fireball then a level 1 caster, but a level 10 melee sovereign probably won't because they'll be investing in other stats instead.

 

thats not the point

 

 

the concern was abot a lvl 1 using a "high" spell to kill a lvl 10

 

who cares if the lvl 10 can cast the same spell more powerful...

still there could be  aflaw

 

but its useless to argue about this till we see a magic system near the conclusion and also a real world going on

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 27

I think more spells should be affected by int; base the effectiveness of all buffs on it, have it make your summoned critters stronger, and so on. This would better emphasize the difference between those that have spent 10 levels improving their casting and those that haven't.

 

 

i think int is not enough

 

some caster may want to use another stat

 

a game is fun when you can decide what to do

some mage may want to specialize in something else

 

at that point there is a flaw if a uber lvl 10 spec into something not int does the same than a stupid warrior lvl 1

 

imo the usual "spell tiers" its the easiest and most elegant solution

Reply #31 Top

Meens I'll be at work tomorrow around noon and be all hard for the new beta :( haha

Reply #32 Top

Quoting blix2006, reply 13

 

i loved some of the crap the ai would try to trade for your good tech..."we will give you fishing for space travel wadda ya say " and then get mad when you laugh them out of the building (civ 4)

 

Its also the feeling that the A.I's are tech trading you out of the game, happily sharing techs with eachother and refusing to share with you!

Reply #33 Top

Is it possible to grey out or disable buildings so you can't build something that you don't have a resource for? Like lets say you have something that increases your metal output but you don't have any mines. You could grey out the output increasing building to indicate that you have sufficient tech to build it but also to indicate that you don't need/can't build it because you don't have that resource. Another option is just to not show the building in your list of buildable buildings if you you don't have the right resource tile.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 30

i think int is not enough

 

some caster may want to use another stat

 

a game is fun when you can decide what to do

some mage may want to specialize in something else


... and why would you do that? Spells scaling off Strength doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 


at that point there is a flaw if a uber lvl 10 spec into something not int does the same than a stupid warrior lvl 1


Is there any evidence that this can happen? What was the level 10 doing with their time?

imo the usual "spell tiers" its the easiest and most elegant solution

Spell tiers aren't elegant. They're a kludge to put some progression in.

Reply #35 Top

comments shorter than quotes are never clever.

 

I did not think that the beta gameplay could change that fast. But it does. I am quite impressed, keep up the good work!

Reply #36 Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 29

the concern was abot a lvl 1 using a "high" spell to kill a lvl 10

As long as the same spell kills a level 100 character when cast by a level 10 that would be fine. It's more to do with progression than ability though; spells currently scale on int so we have more effective spells for higher levels if you increase int; of course if you dump everything into int then you'll be just as vulnerable as you were at level 1; which is again fine since it encourages a more distributed spend on level points and less mini-maxing. You could dump all your points into int for the first ten levels and become the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke, but the price you pay for that is being vulnerable to pretty much anything.

 

Reply #37 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 34

... and why would you do that? Spells scaling off Strength doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Well, there's always wisdom. We have to do something with the stat (starting spell points don't count) - and, really, it would be nice if casters had another stat that directly affects spells, so they just don't stack lots of int. Melees can up attack with str or defense with dex or health with con, casters can up effectiveness (of some spells) with int and mana pool with essence and (??) with wisdom. So int and essence are your only real choices when levelling up, and starting stats are worse, int is the only thing you really need to worry about - pretty one dimensional.

That being said I still think int should affect as many spells as possible, it's odd that it helps half your spells and does nothing for the other half. Then have wisdom do something else useful - increased regen or max mana, reduced mana costs? Something insane like longer range on spells? (that would be interesting). I'd mention spell points but that's already been done and taken out.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 5

Quoting strager, reply 3Speaking of Diplomacy - Can we still trade technologies?
 
For v1.0, no.  The tech trading in GalCiv was never satisfactory and we are trying to avoid that here.  Buy beyond v1.0, anything is on the table.

And there was much rejoicing! :w00t:

Reply #39 Top

Does this mean no more caravans for trade and/or roads?  I have to say, I really liked the caravan system, as well as the idea of establishing trade networks - I was also very much hoping it could get extended to sea trade...

Reply #40 Top

I'm pretty sure there are still caravans. 

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 37

Well, there's always wisdom. We have to do something with the stat (starting spell points don't count) - and, really, it would be nice if casters had another stat that directly affects spells, so they just don't stack lots of int. Melees can up attack with str or defense with dex or health with con, casters can up effectiveness (of some spells) with int and mana pool with essence and (??) with wisdom. So int and essence are your only real choices when levelling up, and starting stats are worse, int is the only thing you really need to worry about - pretty one dimensional.

That being said I still think int should affect as many spells as possible, it's odd that it helps half your spells and does nothing for the other half. Then have wisdom do something else useful - increased regen or max mana, reduced mana costs? Something insane like longer range on spells? (that would be interesting). I'd mention spell points but that's already been done and taken out.

The idea I've been pushing is Int for spell effectiveness and Wisdom for max mana & mana regen. Essence becomes something you can't raise by spending points (it could go up every few levels instead) and is used for enchantment slots, imbues, and the super nasty spells only.

That solves the wisdom problem, gives casters two stats, and also doesn't gimp you by spending essence more then a melee sovereign gets gimped by doing the same thing (since they can spend a fair bit without really noticing).

Reply #42 Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 14
There's a typo in the "Message from Blumb" screenshot

 

How do you know he doesn't just talk like that? Maybe he's...less mentally endowed...and that's his normal speech pattern. It's not like people always talk in proper grammar. Especially in fantasy games from less than decently intelligent cultures/races/people.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 41

The idea I've been pushing is Int for spell effectiveness and Wisdom for max mana & mana regen. Essence becomes something you can't raise by spending points (it could go up every few levels instead) and is used for enchantment slots, imbues, and the super nasty spells only.

That solves the wisdom problem, gives casters two stats, and also doesn't gimp you by spending essence more then a melee sovereign gets gimped by doing the same thing (since they can spend a fair bit without really noticing).

This sounds like a good idea, simple and effective. :thumbsup:

Best regards,
Steven. 

Reply #44 Top


This is both a walkthru and my critique of where we are on the game.

This is going to get updated a lot as I go through this so keep refreshing.

The New Economy

We definitely listened to your feedback. After considering the reports and lots of prototyping we came up with a significantly better, more original, more interesting way to run your Kingdom/Empire.

The world of Elemental is populated with many resources. Admittedly, the screenshot above represents one of those really lucky moments where there’s a lot of resources together but it does illustrate the way things work now very well.

Cities no longer produce resources on their own beyond the absolute most basic research, materials, and arcane knowledge.

The action comes from the very finite number of resources scattered about the world that you can now make use of if they are within your territory. If a resource is in your territory, just click on it and choose build. You don’t have to create any special units to make use of it.

Magical Speed Up

A Dangerous World

There are other things in the world trying to ruin you besides other factions. And they will if you’re not careful.

Combat & Conquest

The conquest technology tree continues to be an issue in the beta. Too long to get boring stuff. This is something that is high on our list to do something about.  It just takes way too long to get the conquest stuff going.

 

I'm really glad your listening to player feedback and suggestions Frogboy. Looks like you DID read my post! :D

 

The changes listed, along with a better and more intuitive interface, you have done almost immediately are looking fantastic, well done! I like the resource change, much better idea i am thinking and whoever came up with that idea should be given a pat on the back (or a similar effect). :)

 

Looking forward to having a crack at 3B. ;)

Reply #45 Top

I agree with Tridus and hope mana and wisdom get tied together in some fashion.  It could be 1-1 and have a tech or two, or even a structure(s), enhance the ratio.   

I like the aspect that essence is the root of magic and by imbuing another you give them the power to use magic.  And that it allows the most vital magic and summons.. But it wouldnt bother me if you still could pop a point into it or not when you increase levels. If it isnt tied directly to your mana then there wont be the feeling of being 'stuck' doing that when you level.  Maybe I can just dump all those points into charisma, don a fine shirt, and go talk Persephone out of all her daughters!*_*

Reply #46 Top

The thing about essence being equal to where your mana maxes out is that the player is having to decide whether to imbue champions or stay powerful themselves.

 

Reply #47 Top

Maybe it should be able to give a focus to a alliance, so you can create multiple of them.

Like a alliance against a player, a alliance for mutual defence, a alliance to get rid of monsters etc etc etc. A alliance to conquer the world...

 

Or a alliance to change all living beings in undead... or spread our supreme religion,,,

 

Reply #48 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 46
The thing about essence being equal to where your mana maxes out is that the player is having to decide whether to imbue champions or stay powerful themselves.

 

Except that Melee Sovereigns don't have nearly as much need to conserve their essence, and they are still powerful, and don't lose that much power, regardless.  Unless Melee Sovereigns get reduced Strength the more they attack, it's not really worth making Caster Sovereigns weaker just because they choose to take the heavily magic-focussed path in the War of Magic. :D

Best regards,
Steven. 

Reply #49 Top

Have you thought about using essence to permanently improve diplomacy with a faction? Maybe bless a marriage with essence or something? Would be cool to create strong Allys, if they AI would actually come to your rescue.