Don't you mean it should depend on skill, not on the demigod? 1v1 would be incredibly stupid if it mattered which demigod you picked.

That is such a given that I figured it didn't need mentioning that I wasn't saying the game should play for you.

Maybe we should specify All things, not just shit we assume people are assuming. Being on this forum has taught me alot of the idiocy of peoples beliefs and in every post i make from this point on I'm going to try and list exactly what I mean to the letter.

Then all the posts would be too long to read..

I mean seriously, did I have to state that how good a Demigod performs a task would be based on equal skill levels?

Who the hell takes pro player vs. first time gamer into account for balancing?

wrong button

Can we please stick to the topic?

Well so far everyone seems to be favoring the assassin, and evrey one is also assuming roles, wither troop killing or demigod killing.

What I think is wrong with this is the fact that evrey demigod will play diffrent!

Take queen of thorns, she's obviously a general made to hold one spot (not being able to move and cast, aoe push back, slow auras). If an assassin tries to attack her, It's probably going to end badly for him. Why do you think she told the rook to come closer!

The rook being slow and using lasers from the base defense system, as well as having long range weaponry is obviously meant either to be used mostly in defense, or to (very slowly) push a lane.

Torchbearer has lots of AoE spells, and high damage and disables. He's a burst damage hero, run in stun theme unload everything, stun again run away (or kill them and continue forward). He can be sneaky pop out of no where and own an ass, but he has no lasting power.

These are just speculations from what we've seen so far, but its more than just are you good at killing demigods or creeps. I think it means very little weather your a general or assassin, it depends on who you are and what your role is.

Obviously two defensive demigods (perhaps Rook and QoT) would have trouble pushing in a 1v1, and who wins would depend on the situation (who attacked first).

p.s. This all assumes equal skill.

10 more days and we can get a taste for ourselves.

Only 4 for me! (PAX is coming to town!)

Mooey hit the nail on the head.. but it's basically the same thing I said.

I hope Assassin or General doesn't matter. What matters is the Demigod itself. Each Demigod should play differently and have a different role.

There should be Assassins that are good in 1vs1 fights against other Demigods, and there should be Generals that are good in 1vs1 fights against other generals. :/
But it shouldn't be TOO RPS.

Right now, and this is subject to change, Generals have minions, Assassins don't. It's a bit of a different experience based on who you play as.

Well yeah. I heard before they where more geared certain ways but they where changing that.. which they should be doing. :/


Because the thing is, some people want to play an RPG, some people want to play more like an RTS.
People that want to play like an RTS should have a General to pick from to do what they want to do not "oh you like controlling armies so you don't get to fight other Demigods, sorry." It's unfair to them. Not everyone wants to play as both an Assassin and General. Just read comments on shacknews, rock-paper-shotgun, kotaku.

What?

Why should a General - without its minions - be able to go toe-to-toe with an Assassin character and win that fight? That doesn't make any sense.

I hope I'm part of the (generally) silent majority in saying that I really hope to see General's strength flow from their minions. An Assassin would thus have to wade through, and likely kill off, many/most of those minions in order to get at the General without getting itself killed. As I see it, the minions are part of the General's power, just like better straight-up attack power would be the Assassin's power.

Of course, since I did just wake up I could be misreading the thread so I might be saying the same thing as everyone else

^Agreed

I don't even see how this is an arguement.

I dunno, its always made sense in my head that you start with a Demigod. If you want to emphasize his general abilities, then max up the abilities in those areas and buy items that will give him the edge in that area. Likewise if you want to emphasize an assassin type, you max up those abilities first, and pick items accordingly. Take for instance Furion in the game of Dota. He has the following abilities:

1. Forces of Nature - Converts up to 5 treants from trees.

2. Teleportation - teleport anywhere on the map (30 sec cooldown when maxxed).

3. Sprout - sprout a ring of trees around the target trapping him in.

4. Wrath of nature - Summons damaging energy to swath around the map and damage random enemies. Each enemy hit beyond the first adds 7% damage. Number of bounces increases per level.

 

So, when you start if you max out forces of nature, buy aura items, you become an early pusher. Your strength is in numbers and your focuses on pushing down towers and the enemies base. In earlier versions of Dota (before backdooring became frowned on or even banned), furion could teleport into the enemy base, usually hiding behind trees in the base) until it was empty, sprout 5 treants, hit refresher (item), spourt 5 more, and take down a few key structures, then tele out. His focus was not on killing other heroes (assassin), but to push with his treants (general).

 

However, you could opt not till level forces of nature till later. Max sprout and teleportation. Save up and buy high damage items (desolator was a favorite for Furion before it was nerfed). Buy some wards (observers) and place them around the map. Whenever an enemy player is damaged, teleport to him, trap him, and finish him off. Or just initiate the attack, teleport from behind, ambush, attack, attack.

 

The order of abilities you choose to level and the items you buy decided his playstyle. You could try to level all the abilities evenly, but honestly, you contribute less to the team by trying to be a mediocre jack of all trades. This was just an example. I'm not sure how Demigod will work, but I always imagined (since they said the lines may be blurred between assassin and general) that you can specialize your demigod into one role or the other. Maybe some Demigods will be Assassin only, and some General only, and some somewhere in between. Who knows.

^

I think the point that some of us are getting at is this:  Consider your "general version" of furion -- without using forces of natures -- against your "assasin version" of furion.  The general version should lose right cause it's technically an unfair fight.  The general version USING forces of nature, would be more fair*.  There seem to be many ideas in this thread, but this is the one I'm trying to drive home.  Of course this is an ideal situation, not including creeps and such.  This situation may not even occur in a game, but it allows for a foundation from which we can build further balance ideas.

*  I've never played dota, so I'm basing my ideas on your explaination above.  YMMV.

ah,  I'm impressed that you are jumping into the example without playing dota.

 

In any case, there is one more thing to remember.  General furion will lose to Assassin furion 1v1, but General furion may still contribute equal or more to winning the game then assassin furion.  The reason: Winning the game is not based on whether you can kill the other Demigod 1v1 or how many kills you get.  Winning is accomplished when you destroy the enemy base/castle (in both Dota and Demigod).

A general demi and an assassin demi need to be balanced with respect to winning the game (base destruction, either directly, or kill other's demi then the base), not necessarily 1v1 dueling.

Yes but generals buy units, not items, their abilities give them more units, and they have buffs by default. What hero in dota is all about the creeps, 75 percent of the abilities are based on the creeps? There isn't one, because all the hero's in dota are assassins, some have a smidgen of general, but they are still all assassins.

Where'd I say this?...

 

People keep assuming really silly things.  I don't know why when comparing Assassins and Generals in ANY aspect you'd even consider comparing the Generals without their minions..

 

Again I don't understand why some Generals shouldn't be good in 1vs1 fights.

Why shouldn't an Assassin be worse at 1vs1 fights but better at killing buildings?

Why shouldn't an Assassin be worse at 1vs1 fights but better at supporting allies?

Why does WHAT THEY DO matter for whether they do it with the aid of minions or not?

 

No Generals buy items.

We're not even certain that minions cost money.

 

(Games Radar hands-on)

 

He's upgrading his castle to prduce new units even if it's autmoatic he's still 'buying' the unit (or at least buying the thing which makes the unit), he's still expending resources for better/bigger units. Yes they buy items, whose goal is generally to make their minions better.

Ah yeah.  I only remembered the items part.

 

Doesn't change how I feel with that there should be some Generals who are good at fighting themselves, and fight with their minions rather than just buffing them with auras, and them together with their minions being good at fighting head on with other Demigods whether they're assassins or Generals.

From the sound of it, maybe Assassins can buy those upgrade for normal creeps too(if i understand it correctly). But if only Generals can do that, that mean generals can't buy items? I don't think it'll be that different. But if you think about it, Generals can both upgrade units and buying items, that will make generals have more potential in late game.

But well, we have to wait to make sure of things first. We are having to many "assuming" in threads now, hope this will get better after the Beta come out. Just about 2 weeks to go guys

Ever play line tower wars on Warcraft III custom maps?  The general idea is that each team (player when singles) has a lane that they must defend.  If any units travel all the way through the lane and reach the end it counts against you until a limit is reached and you are eliminated.  In addition to your lane, you have a seperate area where your barracks are located.  You spend gold to make towers in your lane for defenses, and gold to send creeps from your barracks to the adjacent lane.  Your only source of income is from killing creeps and a periodic salary that increases with the more you spend in creeps. 

The economics are interdependent.  If you spend all of your resources on defenses, your income will be weak and you will effectively cripple your ability to build more defenses.  If you spend all of your resources on creeps, you will not be able to withstand the wave after wave of creeps and you will quickly be eliminated.

There are many variations including teams. One strategy is to let one player build the towers (seperate gold accounts, though income is team dependent) and the other player concentrate on sending the creeps.  Now, imagine us applying this to Demigod.  Instead of a little invincible worker in the lane solely responsible for building towers, now its an assassin like Demigod who doesn't build the towers to kill the creeps, instead he kills them himself.  There is another demigod that is responsible for sending more and more waves of creeps to the other bases.  Additionaly, possibly both can build defenses and other structures to improve the base.  The Demigods could choose at any time to go to the next lane with the creeps and wreck even more havok.

If you haven't played line tower wars, I may have lost you.  If you have, maybe you can get a better idea of the generals and assassins possible roles.  Of course its all speculation, but its good to think of some of the other inspirational custom maps besides dota.

I personally think the distinction is, one has units and is more rts like and the other has one hero and is more rpg like. I seriously think thats the key diffrence, they can all fill diffrerent roles in diffrerent situations.

 

Zeneroth: When he's buying those upgrades I think he was making things for himself! I.E. perhaps when you buy the minatour building, it spawns a minatour evrey 3 seconds or a squad evrey 30 seconds? for you to use as a general, with only an intial invesrment!

 

(And it's only 4 days for me! P A X   ROCKS!! Don't worry I'll do a write up!)

Zeneroth, I think items might be unique per Demigod or something.. That's how it's sort of sounded when they devs speak.

Maybe I've just interpreted very wrongly.

 

If the item pool is the same I wouldn't say it'd give them more potential unless Assassins are getting way more money than they have room for items.

If the item pools are the same and there isnt' an overflow of money then I think with Generals it'll just be a matter of balancing whether you want to upgrade your Demigod, or upgrade your units, or use an item that gives an aura and buffs your demigod to do both, while with an Assassin you might get aura's to help stack buffs with your team and buff creeps, but you wont' have to concern yourself with upgrading what units you get like a General does, you don't have the option but to just buy items.

 

But then I dont' see why you couldn't focus on making your General stronger itself and not worrying about your minions much.  I hope that's a viable option.