x, the torchies don't have enough stun to stop 2 rooks

they have 2 stun spells each, with a downtime long enough for 2 rooks to boulder and hammer smash them to death

They have enough to slow them down and get well into their chaining. I know they can't stop them permanently, that's why two torchies are on the bad end of the equation, even though they could do hellacious damage if timed right. I've never argued that two torchies would win easily, I'm saying that they're one of the few ways to have a prayer. Three, on the other hand could have decent odds of pulling it off if they timed it right.  I'm arguing viability, not superiority. However, that isn't my main point (which I've admittedly lost track of, sorry). My main point is that when all the viable strategies are based off stuns, it's stun that has the biggest problem, not the demis. The rook's got the best stun, so he's the best off in the killy death category.

I've killed 2 rooks with 1 torchbearer multiple times when they tried to gang up on me in a single game.

I still don´t get why the torch bearer seems to be op. He doesn´t even come close to the damage of a rook or regulus because there are no items increasing spell damage.

I had a regulus doing 600 damage per hit (like snipe) with two shots per second and don´t get me started on this insane synergy bewteen items and the rook´s passive damage increasing ability.

I think there should be no or near to zero freezing/stunning abilitys they should instead decrease attack and run speed etc.

cooldown time of rain of ice/fire of TB should be prolonged

My thoughts.

Rook

Problem: His stun with the right items can get lowered to near nothing in terms of cd.  While it is dodgeable, with cd items it becomes sick if one does land.  He does move slower but not by much it just looks like its a lot because of how big he is, it could be reduced more.  Also he destroys towers early game without much resistance, slower mvspd or lower hp would make them play more cautiously.

Fix:Increase stun cd to 20 seconds, increase speed of boulder slightly, reduce range slightly.  Decrease mvspd or hp slightly.

TB

Problem: Strong but not op.  Really low life and easier to gank.  It would be nice to be able to switch between fire and ice whenever instead of just having to wait it out.  If that happened his skills would probably need to be reduced a bit.

Fix: When I cast spells while invisible I don't come out of invisible at least on my screen.  Invisible needs to cancel on any action not just attack.

Regulus

Problem: Low potential early game solo.  By the time he is getting somwhere, the game is pretty  much already decided anyway.

Fix: Could use an increase in his base attack spd and mvspd.  This will allow more DPS early game so he doesn't get totally owned.  Explosive mines are pretty useless against demigods and but are nice early lane control.  Stun mines might need a bit more of a CD(15-20s) but an increase in hp (so a rook's tower can't finish it off before the rook makes it to the mine, its pretty lame).

Why talk about balance in beta1?

The more dgs you have the tougher it is going to become to balance them.  If we allow a great range of strength into beta 2, we will all be arguing whether or not we buff everyone up to be as strong as the strongest hero or reduce everyone to the strength of the weakest hero.  Both of these paths lead to bad balances because of over-nerfing or buffing.  If we can create some median we will be able to judge all heroes based on the same standard.  Also realize that not every hero is meant to be OMG I can 1v1 the other hero.  The game is a strategy game meant to take the others stronghold, don't forget that.

-BlueFire

I can deal with Rook's godly hammer slam because you can walk out of the way; but the bolder is WAAAAY overpowered. 10 second cooldown for a 5 second stun? Jesus christ. Although Rook has mana energy problems, that doesn't make up for the fact that he's still great on damage and life. However this is Beta 1 and didn't expect it to be perfectly balanced. I'm sure they will realize what they need to fix.

PS: Torch Bearer's permastunning and a single teammate is an increddibly easy way to totally own any Rook trying to push into your base. Common sense, People: Rook is only overpowered in 1v1 situations. His big, slow, ugly castle-like hide can easily be taken down with simple team co-ordination.

The problem is that a single hammersmash is all you need. I think that it is more than possible to chain stun as a Torchbearer, but I had problems with a Reggy.

I think that the TB and Reg just need to output more damage. The hammersmash does more than twice Snipe damage, plus creep one-shotting AoE. The rook can just own anything in range, instantly.

Also, Reggy's explosive mines need to have no CD, so that when it says 30 mines, it's not kidding.

@Mittsies - I'm not arguing he shouldn't be able to tank, I'm arguing that he should be able to own towers with very little resistance extremely early in the game (level 5 or so).  TB doesn't have enough of a "permastun" at that level to really stop him, later yes, but early no.  If you started 3 rooks and rushed the crap out of their towers you would own them.  A balanced team should be able to stop them, but I don't think currently can until later in the game.  Somehow we need to stop Rook's early game.

People are going to cry for faster boulder speed when people start reading guides posted and decrease lag over hamachi (or just wait til after its hosted by gpg).  Its easy to dodge even in laggy situations after only playing for a day.  After people get experienced even more, it'll be ridicoulously easy to dodge.

@DeadMG - I agree Reg needs more DPS, but I don't think TB does.  His goal is to control keeps and to stun, more like a support hero.  Reggy seems to be more of a single target DPS in his build style but doesnt have the basic stats to support it early game at all.  We can't fall back on the solution that everyone's DPS needs to be the same at the beginning or we just have 3 of the same hero styles with different animations.

-BlueFire

I think it's a matter of how you skill up, and using the dude properly.  There probably are some balance issues, but in the 10 games I've played, the Torchbearer seems much more powerful.  He can easilly eliminate scores of mooks, and deal lots of damage as well.

Regulus can also be quite interesting, once you get his range way up, he outranges the defense towers.  It's pretty trivial to sneak up and capture a portal.  With the Rook's structure killing ability, it's quite a bit less subtle.  I think Regulus can even stay in the "fog of war" while killing the towers leading to the portal.  Regulus's ability where he gets his wings back is AMAZINGLY damaging as well.

Meh, it's still torchbearer for me...  must... get... general style... demigods...

This phase isn't about balancing the Demigods, but yes.. Rook is pretty powerful though I've never been DOMINATED by a Rook.

Thats true, but that requires you to grow to a very high level. Most games I've played have been over by level 12, once by level 15. By then the damage that the Rooks have been doing all game, opposed to what you can now finnaly deal out, is to much. The tide of the game has been turned for them, and it would take some real skill to pull off a win.Not to mention with things like his arrow tower, even the computer are level 14 before I'm level 10.

Yes the fact is that a skilled torch bearer can beat a Rook, a skilled Regulus could probably win too. Still thats aginst low level players and comps. When we get to full online play, and we meet skilled players who focus on learning Rooks strengths and weaknesses (which doesn't take that much to do) And fight with him using tactics that are better then an average player, your gonna have games where you groan and go, damn, I have to fight him agian, because even if you do win, with the amount of health he can have, he'll have decimated your forces or beat one of your allies long befroe you can take him down (considering potions to). He does need nerfing, how much I'm not sure. But he needs it.

Nerf his stun. That will fix him mostly. If he can't stun and hammer slam at extreme range, you can kite him or a ton of other fun things. As it stands, his hammer slam is overpowered, because it's hitting stunned demis squarely. If it's something you have to do just right to get the full damage from a square hit, then the fact that on average, it's less damaging than snipe or a full firey fusilade from torchy will show, and that should help balance considerably.

Good players can dodge the boulders pretty well.  The rook has to get closer to use them, in which case he gets frozen or stun mined.

Just wanna throw it in that I've been having no problems against Rook as Regulus. Rook is really slow and fairly easy to kite. Upgrade your run speed so you can dodge his boulder and generally build accordingly.

I've seen a lot of people complain so and so is overpowered. In fact I've had someone tell me each toon is over powered after playing against me.

Just think more strategicaly and be adaptive. When fighting rook don't try and tank him, that's just stupid. Keep max distance and kite him.

He really needs to hit with that stun to be effective. If you can dodge that, he's actually pretty mediocre.

This is the sign of wonder things Thank you for making a geat beta yes there are some small issuses. However people are talking about the game and powers and not crashing GPG love you guys and Stardock thank you for coming on board. I think we got a winner here ppl. LMAO

For me, i thing boulder should be moving a bit slower? it's already AoE stun with long stunning time. Compare to Torch Bearer frost, the boulder still longer with AoE.

hmm, while i agree the Rook is overpowered i've managed to kill one with the Torchy, might have had something to do with the fact that i was about 5 levels higher than him and used every possible stun attack on him and the fact that he was surronded by creeps, but he is killable by other gods . but the truth is, he does need to be nerfed, at least the stun anyway. its very frustrating when a boulder comes out of no where stuns you and all you can do is watch helplessly as the hammer comes crashing down.

I like this one. If you're up close it's really hard to dodge, but if you haven't been neglecting your kiting duties, you don't have much problem. You can still use it to go creep bowling, and everybody's (mostly) happy.

don't nerf the rook just raise the others to his level

also the rook's stun lasts longer than the stuns that the torch bearer has... and that gets me killed a lot because someone will be the rook and will boulder stun then tele with a scroll to me and hammer before i can do anything, and then i die no matter what i do

Ok, the Rook is not as overpowered as mentioned. Just a few things to make him balanced imo.

The Smash is fine, its so EASY to dodge it - ok, AI can't, but they still got AI-problems, and AI will never be as good as other players. It's a hard skill eraly game.. later on, the only thing you'll get mostly is the lower AE-Dmg.

The "Structural Transfer" is the strongest skill he has - in terms of power - deals huge damage against buildings, heals himself for tons of hp + cannot be interrupted after he started the attack (tried that one.)

The small towers he can produce.. aren't that good, they do no serious damage (~60 per hit) have long cd. All they have is a decent amount of HP. But you can have them only on lv 10.

The additional cannons are ok, but nothing to scary. And the Roll just got a too low cooldown. 10s => 15s would be ok.

And last but not least.. maybe lower his HP a tiny little bit, at level 15 he got nearly twice the lifepoints of Remulus or Torchi, i think +50% more than the others fit him. Ah, and something you shouldn't forget => Rooks attackspeed is to high, it doesnt fit with the 2.5-3sec. tooltip. If this gets fixed, his damage output will decrease significantly i guess.

Edit: I dont think, the Boulder should be slower. At long range, its nearly impossible to hit any decent players - due to the cast time. Also he has an really obvious cast animation while casting the boulder - so you get a free warning. Btw, if a Rook player manages it, to come close to you (with his craaaazy movespeed) he should be able to stun you with a decent chance. I mean Rookyboy will get focus fired alot in real games imo, due to his huge sizes.

So long, Aspartem

Another reason why the Rook is so over-powerfull/needs to be nerfed, is that he can access the structural transfer when he is half the level needed (example: when I was playing the rook and level 3, I can access the struc. transfer which requires level 6)

Fixing that would help considerably, but the stun still is a bit hard to dodge for we mere mortals for something that's essentially a death sentence. I'd say that if it were just a little bit slower to make exteme range stuns a bit harder, then I'd be fine with it. It's just a bit cruel to newbies.

has anyone else tried to boulder, then warp scroll and hammer immediately, its almost always a ko for a torchbearer.  Its sooo over powered but i don't know of any way to stop or nerf that without ruining so other fun