Why not just put dedicated servers like every other RTS and end our suffering?

Quoting wbobeirne,

Uhhhhhh... I don't think there are ANY RTS' with DedServs...

Pretty sure World at War has dedicated servers.

Anyway, it'll never happen for Demigod. It's designed to use peer to peer to its very core. You can't recode the entire networking code in any reasonable amount of time. We're stuck with peer-to-peer and a broken game. It's that simple. It needs to be reworked on so many levels.

So many times I've been able to connect to everyone in a lobby, yet not been able to join the lobby myself. So many other times, everyone has entered the lobby, connected, but then someone disconnects at the start of the match while loading. Other times, I can't connect at all from the Custom Games list (Failed to connect or some such). Pantheon doesn't work for more than 2v2, where 1 person usually crashes from the above mentioned loading failures.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one here, but I've spent more time at the connecting screens than in-game playing.

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OP makes me laugh.

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Quoting Nolc,

reply 23

all major FPS games are running Server Based

Would you mind naming ALL the majors that do this and ALL the ones that don't?

I'm curious what you come up with and am taking bets on the latter being quite huge and the former being quite...er....small..

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Nolc, did you ever play CS with someone from another continent ? If you don't run a game P2P you can't really have a unified worldwide community. Because with Servers you either run the game asynchronous (you don't see what is actually happening as the server does the simulation) or you double the ping (if you run it synchronous and relay the stuff via the host.

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Quoting Jandar99,

reply 3

Quoting Nolc, reply 23all major FPS games are running Server Based

Would you mind naming ALL the majors that do this and ALL the ones that don't?

I'm curious what you come up with and am taking bets on the latter being quite huge and the former being quite...er....small..

All source games run via server, the Call of Duty series as well... now that I think of it, I can't think of any FPS's that run P2P based. Would you mind telling me of a few?

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um

warcraft 3 DOES host from dedicated servers for ranked matches

and for all other games its done at the user end..and with alot of third party hosting tools its lagless

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Halo is peer to peer I think

http://kotaku.com/259881/bungie-qa-on-beta-equipment-saved-films-rankings

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fps run dedicated servers that final, dont argue it...

the majority of rts run p2p, there was jsut 2 major problems on day 1 of the game which have been mostly resolved.

yes there are still problems, but they should be fixed. and eys other good rts's have ahd the same problems, such as COH, they have just been around long enough to fix them.

now quiet the fucking argument and go play, or dump the game

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"Would you mind naming ALL the majors that do this and ALL the ones that don't?"

http://www.esl.eu/eu/ems/season4/ all shooters there are using server based

i can't think of a FPS that does use Peer 2 Peer. (i just didn't went with ALL FPS GAMES because i'm not 100% sure of that, some crazy companie could have created one...)

"Are you even reading what I say?"

it's hard because i'm laughting all the time if a read a post with so much miss-information.

"But when it's melee heavy"

I'm nearly 100% sure you don't know a game Called "Rune: Halls if Vallhalla" ( http://www.runegame.com/ ) This game is nearly MEELE only and i played it years ago, server based. With a low ping you could play that game PERFECTLY.....andits meele....and SERVER BASED.....and MEEEEEEEEEEEEEELE!

"No. Every 50ms, you get a ping from You > Server > You ."

Your "No" is incorrect because i said "50ms ever yplayer in the game get's to know where every other player is" and that is true. every 50 ms you get to know where the server thinks the other player is. But ofc you are right...so at the worse case scenario it takes 100ms for my computer to be 100% sure where the other player is.......10 times a second......

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Quoting TheBigOne,

reply 7

Halo is peer to peer I think

Oh, never knew.

Quoting Neoauld,

reply 6

um

warcraft 3 DOES host from dedicated servers for ranked matches

and for all other games its done at the user end..and with alot of third party hosting tools its lagless

That's because they don't want people disconnecting frequently or having problems due to P2P and messing up stats. For the vanilla WC3 game lag isn't that big of a deal, but in a game like DotA or some other popular hero based mod it can very well be.

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so I just started up starcraft (you know most popular game of all RTS( and tested how it runs without port forwarding:

1vs1 - runs as usual except you can't host or download maps.

2vs2 and bigger, you can connect and start the game but it has horrible lag.

and nolc Starcraft has a EMS too and its p2p

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Quoting wbobeirne,

reply 5

Quoting Jandar99, reply 3
Quoting Nolc, reply 23all major FPS games are running Server Based

Would you mind naming ALL the majors that do this and ALL the ones that don't?

I'm curious what you come up with and am taking bets on the latter being quite huge and the former being quite...er....small..

All source games run via server, the Call of Duty series as well... now that I think of it, I can't think of any FPS's that run P2P based. Would you mind telling me of a few?

Ahh see you missed my point...you also used the term ALL then went on to add CoD...wouldn't that have been covered under the ALL part?

Fact is ALL is incorrect..

Better term would be SOME ....

Sensationalize much?

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Quoting Nolc,

reply 9

"Would you mind naming ALL the majors that do this and ALL the ones that don't?"

http://www.esl.eu/eu/ems/season4/ all shooters there are using server based

i can't think of a FPS that does use Peer 2 Peer. (i just didn't went with ALL FPS GAMES because i'm not 100% sure of that, some crazy companie could have created one...)

"Are you even reading what I say?"

it's hard because i'm laughting all the time if a read a post with so much miss-information.

"But when it's melee heavy"

I'm nearly 100% sure you don't know a game Called "Rune: Halls if Vallhalla" ( http://www.runegame.com/ ) This game is nearly MEELE only and i played it years ago, server based. With a low ping you could play that game PERFECTLY.....andits meele....and SERVER BASED.....and MEEEEEEEEEEEEEELE!

"No. Every 50ms, you get a ping from You > Server > You ."

Your "No" is incorrect because i said "50ms ever yplayer in the game get's to know where every other player is" and that is true. every 50 ms you get to know where the server thinks the other player is. But ofc you are right...so at the worse case scenario it takes 100ms for my computer to be 100% sure where the other player is.......10 times a second......

Seeee you finally answered it.... DG is NOT an FPS....its a RTS and like you said there done P2P.....so why again are you throwing around the FPS against RTS stuff again?

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Quoting Nolc,

reply 9

"Would you mind naming ALL the majors that do this and ALL the ones that don't?"

http://www.esl.eu/eu/ems/season4/ all shooters there are using server based

i can't think of a FPS that does use Peer 2 Peer. (i just didn't went with ALL FPS GAMES because i'm not 100% sure of that, some crazy companie could have created one...)

"Are you even reading what I say?"

it's hard because i'm laughting all the time if a read a post with so much miss-information.

"But when it's melee heavy"

I'm nearly 100% sure you don't know a game Called "Rune: Halls if Vallhalla" ( http://www.runegame.com/ ) This game is nearly MEELE only and i played it years ago, server based. With a low ping you could play that game PERFECTLY.....andits meele....and SERVER BASED.....and MEEEEEEEEEEEEEELE!

"No. Every 50ms, you get a ping from You > Server > You ."

You "No" is not incorrect because i said "50ms ever yplayer in the game get's to know where every other player is" and that is true. every 50 ms you get to know where the server thinks the other player is. But ofc you are right...so at the worse case scenario it takes 100ms for my computer to be 100% sure where the other player is.......10 times a second......

Pardon the double post, but on with the reply.

That's proving my point: FPS's don't use P2P even though it's clearly quicker BUT more inaccesible. Glad we got that out of the way.

Oh yes, I'm riddled with misinfo. Like how FPS's use serve- wait a minute! And how servers wor- Gosh darn it!

That Rune game obviously wasn't very popular and I never played it so I nor probably anyone else can't comment on it so there's not much to say there. I only know that quicker moving games (Ala TF2, Crysis even) that are server based with melee can be painfully obvious at how bad the ping can be for CQC. Most combat heavy online FPS's have slow moving characters (Age of Chivalry HL2 mod?)

Glad we can admit I was right. At least your not being a douche about it and I thank you for that. However, like I said there's a few milliseconds of processing time on all 3 computers and not everyone has stellar connections. What if they live 1500 miles from the server? It can get to be quite a bit.

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Holy Cow.....

For all "slow" people again:

My point is that the argument "Peer 2 Peer is a must have because of the meele fight and the slow connection of server based MP games" is absolutly bullshit.

To proof that i named a FPS Game, in FPS you need a very good ping and to get that very good ping you use....guess what... Server Based Mutlyplayer.

To proof that you don't need p2p in a meele game i named "Rune: Halls of Vallhalla" the game is meele and run's server based _without_ hitting someone 15 feet away.

Peer 2 Peer has no advantages besides a lesser cost for Stardock because they don't have to run Game Servers.

wbobeirne

i get the feeling you are delusion. you are tricking yourself into believing something that isnt true but doesn't hurt your feelings.

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So when you don't get through to someone, calling them delerious and "Slow" really helps.

I'm done trying to explain this to you. I never played this Rune game and as such can't vouch for or against it and so I discard it. Your rationalizations of why servers work are simply because "It works for FPS!" That's not a reason why it should work. Different games, different necessaties.

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"Different games, different necessaties."

That is where you disqualify in a debate with intelligent people. Becuase it's not RLY about the game it's not rly about the genre it's about

How fast information has to be deliverd from one computer to another and FPS server based multyplayer and warcraft 3 server based multyplayer PROOFES that server based multyplayer can handle it EASYLY. peer 2 peer on they other hand makes it very hard to even accomplish a connection between all players and makes it hard for all players to stay in the game and is very upload INTENS because you have to upload your movement to EVERY other plaer in the game. you can easyly play a serverbased multyplayer with just 5KByte upload but playing demigod with 7 other guys with 5kb upload, NO WAY that is going to be lag free.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2412

RTS's don't use dedicated servers for hosting games. That includes Warcraft 3.

The only games that have company dedicated servers for hosting games are MMOs.

Most first person shooters (counter strike and such) let people set up their own servers for people to connect but that wouldn't work well in Demigod.

In Demigod, we can't get away with prediction because it would be incredibly frustrating online for people. For example, when the rook picks a target and hammer slams, that entire action might take 3 seconds. 3 seconds is an eternity if the game isn't peer-to-peer.

In a game such as Counterstrike, what you see on your computer isn't the same as what is happening on the server. That's why you can end up with cases where you are "sure" you shot someone but they didn't die because it only looked liked you shot them but according to the server, you missed and so no HP is deducted.

Even a game with true dedicated servers such as World of Warcraft,, they have to set these servers up by region in order to mitigate the latency issue I just described above. But doing that in Demigod isn't practical because, for example, right now there are 1073 games of Demigod being run. That would be a lot of servers (even virtual servers) to be set up around the world.

There's nothing inherently wrong with peer-to-peer except that it makes getting the initial connection more difficult. But the connection issues on day 0/1 had little to do with peer-to-peer but rather the actual dedicated servers that handle the match making being overwhelmed by connections from sources we had not anticipated.

+1

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Thanks frogboy! Hopefully Nolc might understand it better coming from you.

At your most recent comment though, P2P is of course more upload intensive but that's why I have an internet connection that can handle that. And being I have internet that can handle that, it's a non-issue for me.

Oh and just as a note, cut the 'Holier than thou' act. It's bugging me.

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Warcraft 3 Hosts Ranked ladder matches FOR you, no peer 2 peer no player in the game is the host, blizzard is hosting the game FOR you. The same goe's for Diablo 2 closed b.net.

So you think a Counter Strike server that is running on 50ms is to less for demigod? I wounder if you have ever played Dota, because the game run's on 100ms with List Checker and tool's like that and people stun bick up cast AoE effects and stuff like that _without problems_.

Kudos to you for talking about that stuff but telling people a Counter Strike server that is running on a tick rate of 33 is to slow for Demigod is just plain stupid. P2P makes it not only harder to even get a connection with everyone els but also makes it hard to hold this connection over the whole game.

I mean in a 5 on 5 Game every player must open 9 connections this means (and only if both players can use 1 connection to each other, if not we are talking about 90 connections) 45 connections total. The chance that one of this connections starts lagging losing packages or gettong damaged packages is way higher than with a normal Client Host based multyplayer.

ps.: it is RLY cool that it is NOT a issue for you because your connection can handle it. so you are one of these "i'm the best fuck the rest" type of guys? if it's fine for you everyone els should shut up and stop bitching arround?

in Professional Gaming many people are coming from russia poland hungary places where the internet is slow and the upload even slower (it get's better of course) but with such a limited upload 5 on 5 is unplayable.

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The bandwidth required is simply too much for client-server, you don't appreciate the quantity of data involved in a Demigod game.

In order to play WC3, you're recieving all data required to play the game from the server, and just rendering the results. So now, Archer X fired at Grunt Y. You instantly know exactly what the results were, because you have the same random seed, and the same unit locations, and the shot is guaranteed to hit, etc etc.

Demigod, on the other hand, if a person moves (the equivalent of) Grunt Y in the meantime, the shot might miss, E.G. Rook's Hammerslam. This MASSIVELY increases the amount of data and forces the game to have a relatively low latency, because you need to know much more information as it happens, instead of afterwards.

As for tick rate, Demigod is 10tick. Good CS:S servers are 100tick.

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Quoting Nolc,

reply 11

......

Blizzard DOES in fact host games FOR players.

In Diablo 2 in the closed b.net every game is hosted FROM blizzard.

In WC3 every Ranked Ladder Match is Hosted from Blizzard. In Wc3 if you Host a Custom Game YOU are the Host and manage all connection's.

In WC3 you can host a game with a dedicated root server if you run tools like GHost++ (i do that, and the server run's on 50ms and is way faster than any realistic p2p connection)

The only bad thing is: you need a 3party tool. So if Stardock would have been smart they just includet this "Dedicated Root Server" host System into the multyplayer part and it could have saved them a lot of trouble. Instead they choose to go with the p2p crap. On one side they are dodging costs with that because they don't have to pay for games servers like blizzard does, on the other hand they are selling it as an "INPROVMENT" to the players.

Kudos to stardock for selling dodging costs to the players as inprovment!

It should be noted that providing servers would not be the ideal solution. If you remember for Diablo, the server demand outstripped supply and BNet version was unplayable for a good long while (till blizzard increased the number of servers). Also that is expensive, I'm not every developer has the resources for it.

It seems to have gotten a little better at least I can see the connections but it still needs more work (as hosting custom games still needs a LOBBY and a easy way to talk to people).

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Nolc

Really interested in your new RTS game your gonna design around server hosting and look forward to the bug free play. Sounds like you have everything worked out and should have no problems.

Come back and let us know when its ready so we can playtest for you. I'm eager to post in your forums about its flaws....

Wish you the best....

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Nolc, the ping on that counterstrike server is so low because you play with persons very near to your (own country most likely), try playing CS with someone from the other side of the world. It just won't work. If you are fine with being restricted to only playing people who live near your position, fine. I prefer to play with people all around the world with as low lag as possible. In Starcraft you can play as german with koreans with really good ping. In Warcraft you can't (unless you play via garena or another p2p solution).

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Quoting Nolc,

reply 20

Kudos to you for talking about that stuff but telling people a Counter Strike server that is running on a tick rate of 33 is to slow for Demigod is just plain stupid.

ps.: it is RLY cool that it is NOT a issue for you because your connection can handle it. so you are one of these "i'm the best fuck the rest" type of guys? if it's fine for you everyone els should shut up and stop bitching arround?

in Professional Gaming many people are coming from russia poland hungary places where the internet is slow and the upload even slower (it get's better of course) but with such a limited upload 5 on 5 is unplayable.

Wow, you are extremeley hot blooded, closed minded and quick to judge my friend, let's start with paragraph one.

When did I say that 33 ping was too slow for demigod? I don't remember saying that. I only said that P2P is optimal. Ping of a server mainly relies on where you leave, a 33 ping would require everyone playing to live somewhere within a tristate area and that does not happen very often.

Another instance in which I did not claim that. I didn't say "Fuck the rest" I simply said it's reasons like that I have a good internet connection. Gaming is a big deal for me, some people have sports, some people collect coins, I play videogames. Therefore I keep up with what it requires. Considering your guess of 5kb/s, that's a max of 45 up and down which is childs play compared to most connections. If you don't have a connection that can handle that then you don't meet the crioteria to be playing games. Just like if I was fat and frail, I couldn't play sports etc.

If you live that far away you're not going to be able to do professional gaming, that's a fact. I live in America and I can't professional play cricket unless I find some really small American cricket league, same situation. I'm not as arrogant, stupid nor conceited as you make me out to be. So stop doing it, it's making me think you're an ass who can't handle someone disagreeing with him over the internet.

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