A Formal Apology to Frogboy » Forum Post by dyingsole

Someone call this kid's parents, he's throwing a temper tantrum all over the forum.

QFT

And Muus your doing nothing but further proving the point I'm trying to make.

We finally get a game publisher that wants to be there and talk it out, and we hate them for it. It just plain sucks. I feel the forums here need a reboot. I'm not saying that discussions of features should be abandoned, but instead more contructive and thought provoking than "omg f*cking sedna with high priests. Damnit stardock=fail i'm going back to dota"

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I have to agree with the largest portion of the sentiment in this thread, the community for is a large part ugly. I left the forums for a while because of it...I came back and feel like I might regret it. Not because of the more thoughtful people, but the desperate egos fighting hard to be great in a big world...and the wrong method of dealing with those circumstances. But yeah, if you go overboard and get angry, don't be too self depricating Brad/Frogboy we all go through that, it's just human. I feel like I can sense some frustration, not the frustration of the 108 hour work week, but the frustration of the potential insurmountablility of people's attitudes, and trying to maintain a community with some really hateful members. GLHF.

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I wanna say something first : I'm not a big writer on the forum because i'm not very good in english and I prefer spending my time playing the game instead of just talking about it.

To FrogBoy : If this msg can make you hold on, your presence on the forum is crucial.. (well at least for me)

There is a few problems with the game (bugs) lot of people talked about it for months now... But I decided to stay silent about it mainly because overall : the game is great and that greatness overweight the few bugs.

Your presence on the forum is the guidance that we need. Our source of information to know what is going on with the developement.

If you read this, think about the people that dosent complain and just play the game and enjoy it.

From the silent part of the DG community.

Alexi Von Kuciak

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/sigh,

Im sure you saw my post earlier quoting Zero Punctuations description of fans, frogboy, in the stick with stardock thread so i dont think it needs repeating.

Its a real shame that the community in the forums is so negative. Is the game perfect, no but with PC gaming is every game going to be perfect on every system with every setup, no. I was really excited when i got this game and put it on my lil bro's PC aswell and started smashing some Ai in a lan. Then i went online...

For the most part i stayed away from custom games because from the little taste of that i got starting out the people thier tended to be more depressing to play with. Not just because they had a team full of friends but they seemed to get off pointing out the inadequacies, and anyone who didnt have a constant 8 sim speed may aswell kill themselves. So that right there i dont even bother with custom.

Then with pantheon it was completely different most people seemed to realize they are lucky to have a teammate who isnt an ai and even more so who communicates and i had alot of fun. Then i just had to deal with way to many people who didnt like that my computer isnt high specced and i sometimes get slowdowns periodically late game. Look I dont go out of my way to slow the game down, i meet min requirements but i defenately dont need some kid who hasnt worked a day in his life, who never had to pay for the food he eats and anything in fact to tell me to get a job and buy a new computer. After awhile I just got sick of playing at all even though it doesnt happen all that often.

Then, i started posting in the forums, seemed like a good deal of happy players, new excited guys and gals aswell but the more I hung around the more i saw this consistant amount of crying i couldnt believe. (Understand i wasnt here when the game came out most of the connection issues were fine and the game was already running smooth, maybe 2 weeks before 1.1 came out, which i felt did an amazing job addressing many of the issues i had.) Here are these devs/pubs trying to keep all these trolls happy with plenty of bridge to roam under but the bridge was never big enough.

I hope that you, frogboy, dont give up on the community and game as a whole. I got to play against you once in pantheon and i thought that was fricking cool, playing with the guy who paid for the damn game to be made. Theres alot of good in the community, got a few of them on my friendslist, but they are content to play the game and enjoy themselves whereas the negative nancy's feel that thier nagging, bitching, whining, complaining, name calling, hating, and all round trolling is going to make the game more enjoyable.

Well no. I got sick of it, i dont even read half the forums anymore. Sometimes i read the first to third post and if it is all the same, waa waa i want this i want this, do this or i'll cry louder.

You know what the problem might be is stardock spoiled this community with thier presence and willingness to reply, and now half the community has developed this brat complex whereas the other half are like the other people in the grociery watching a poor mother drag her screaming crying child through the ailes because he wants a toy or candy. And yea, the other half for the most part just feel like staying as far away as possible while still buying thier groceries.

Well, i dont feel like i need to apologize for anything i have said in the forums. I have my issues here and thier little pet peeves, but i havent even bothered to post them and bring them up just because im already sick of all the complaining i dont feel like it will do a bit of good bringing my complaints forward.

Should people bring up issues with the game. Yes. Does there need to be 15 threads on the main forum doing nothing but complain about mostly the same things? no, no there doesnt, it's redundant and it makes the community look really depressing and it killed alot of the fun i had in coming here and i have nothing to do with the game other than i bought and play it. So i can only imagine how GPG and the guys at stardock feel seeing all of it. Hell i bet Frogboy talked to GPG and i wouldnt be surprised of GPG said "Hey we just released 1.1 frogboy and they did nothing but complain about it, I'd really rather just take a break from DG forawhile and focus on Supcom 2 if thats alright. We arent done with DG but appearantly these quickly released patches and fixs only make the community feel like they are entitled to more and more now. Maybe a break will make them grateful when they do get something."

I know thats what i would be thinking. But i mean come on guys. If you want to complain do it in a manner that addresses the issue, doesnt scream bloody murder, doesnt insult the PEOPLE who make the game, and doesnt induce flaming in one way or another and no "Demigod should had this and because it doesnt it sucks and therefor so do you." is not constructive or helpful in any way.

I've seen some good, hey Stardock theres a problem with this here are some suggestions that might fix the issue i hope it can be fixed and adjusted... do you remember the problem with priest before? I hope your guys memory isnt so short. The community had alot of complaints about it. Someone took the time to write out a constructive, helpfull and most importantly respectful thread and GPG fixed the issue.

Unheard of. And alot of you still felt like pissing in thier yard. How pitiful these boards can be sometimes.

Wow thats already a long rant and i can go on but i'll end it with this.

Frogboy, Stardock mods/devs, you guys are a major reason i still browse through these forums. I have alot of respect for what you guys do and the way you do it. Keep it up and dont give the cold shoulder to those who actually care. Theres always an antidote for a toxin and you guys help keep the good apples around.

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It´s a pitty what a few jerks can do to this game. I understand quite good what frogboy´s motives are and must say, I wouldn´t have done it any other way if I were him. Fully understandement here.

Demigod is a great game but the people who play it online and then come here to the forums to cry, are indeed toxic. They aren´t aware of destroying the fun people have playing demigod and instead drive them away from the game, making the community shrink and leaving the game with only a small community. According to this, GPG/Stardock won´t make further efforts in pushing new content into the game - understandable !

I hope Frogboy puts all his skill/experience and love to computer games into Elemental. It looks like this will be a big game. Looking forward to it not only knowing that one of the best developer team of PC games out there is making the job !

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 1

There's nothing for you to apologize for. All you did is wake me up to the reality of the Demigod community - it's toxic.

No matter what we do for the game post release, it'll never be enough. I think that's clear. No matter what we do or what we get GPG to do the best we'll ever get from the Demigod community is "well it should have had <insert feature> to begin with" with the typical response being "Well that's nice but what about <insert thing they want next here>?"

It's a toxic community here. And that's just the forums. Then, you get into the game and you get people who grief other users in games, swear at them, create pre-mades without identifying what they are.

And in my head, I can think of endless efforts to counter toxic behavior by the community with new features in the game but for what?

The best thing I think is to let Demigod evolve in whatever way it's going to evolve without my trying to interfere with it. My time is much better spent on Elemental where if someone has a request that I agree with I can get it into the game directly (literally either code it myself or assign one of my developers).

On Demigod, I'll always be merely the messenger of news (good and bad) and frankly, the Demigod community is too toxic for me to want to spend my free time being apart of. Maybe that's because of the early networking issues the game had or because of the genre of the game or the demographic of the players. I don't know. I just know I don't want to be apart of it anymore.

That doesn't mean I won't ever be on anymore. But as long as the forums are brimming with bile (justified or unjustufied) I won't be apart of it.

But there is nothing you said in your comments that was inappropriate or wrong. It just made me realize that my presence doesn't really make a different in the bigger scheme of things in the community.

I've spent my morning reading the entire situation and what i can say is this :

1) You think that somewhere else you will get rid of the trantums and frustrations thwron by ppl? The answer is no, the forums are toxic because ppl are asses on the internet, gives them a high sense of superiority, so if you give up even if it's justifiable and understandable. But the nagging will never stop in neither industry, gaming or software.

2) I like what someone else said on the tantrum topic, when you gave out the list of bugs fixed, it was something like "i can give you a huger list of bugs". I'm sorry and with all respect FrogBoy but he is right, fixing something is appreciated in the community, means you are working hard on it, but don't make it seem like an over-achievement for which you should be idolized and refrain others from further criticize. Indeed some of them are complete morons who don't know a thing or two about game development, but some make valid points.

3) In life you will get all sorts of people, the best thing to do about your craftsmanship si to igoner them and listen to the people that count.

Best of luck with your project.

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Hiding behind an LCD screen makes everyone a bigshot. Most of these people are immature kids with mommy issues who don't know how to word themselves. This is the nature of the internet. Welcome!

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Quoting Xristina,

reply 6

1) You think that somewhere else you will get rid of the trantums and frustrations thwron by ppl? The answer is no, the forums are toxic because ppl are asses on the internet, gives them a high sense of superiority, so if you give up even if it's justifiable and understandable. But the nagging will never stop in neither industry, gaming or software.

I highly doubt the Elemental forums are going to be anything like the current state of the Demigod ones.

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This, my friends, is why middlemen exist. I wonder how differently Frogboy's perception would be if he'd just had an intern read the boards every day and type up synopses of the most commonly recurring discussions/flames without having to trudge through them himself.

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Quoting Obscenitor,

reply 9

This, my friends, is why middlemen exist. I wonder how differently Frogboy's perception would be if he'd just had an intern read the boards every day and type up synopses of the most commonly recurring discussions/flames without having to trudge through them himself.

I don't think that's a healthy system. The person in charge should be able to see the true output of his or her customers. It's just that on the internet, even more so than on the phone, people feel the need to heighten themselves by depreciating others. The only real solution is a thick skin.

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Actually they weree rresposible for most the conenction problems=D

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I hate being right in this case.

https://forums.stardock.com/351282/get;2199871

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I don't think that's a healthy system. The person in charge should be able to see the true output of his or her customers. It's just that on the internet, even more so than on the phone, people feel the need to heighten themselves by depreciating others. The only real solution is a thick skin.

I disagree. I played WoW since the original beta and while my insights into the developer community are limited, I do think I have a reasonable idea of what the process Blizzard has gone through:

Direct developer contact
Developer frustration
Zero contact
Forum clamor gets out of hand
Different (not new, just ones who hadn't spoken up on the boards) developers contact playerbase directly
Developer frustration
Community managers become official middle men. They read the boards and have weekly meetings with the developers, doling out what information is possible
Community manager frustration
Community managers quit or are recycled to different tasks in the company
Repeat
Repeat
Repeat
Direct contact from the lead designer
Lead designer frustration
Community managers take the reigns again
Repeat 13 through 15
Different lead designer, Ghostcrawler steps in as primary PR guy
Ghostcrawler frustration
Ghostcrawler has an epiphany that people are so abrasive because they care about the game
Ghostcrawler deals with it
Ghostcrawler gets frustrated
Repeat steps 20 and 21 through present

The important conclusion is that virtually no one can handle the caustic feedback from video game forums. Only the thickest of skinned and most motivated people can do it, and generally speaking playing PR guy and developing a game is one hat too many.

Give Frogboy a break, I think we can already see a pattern forming with him, which is that Frogboy comes here, has some good times, gets frustrated eventually, goes away for a bit (he just got back from vacation) and then returns when he's ready to do so.

So to me the most important things he should do are:

Designate co-workers to relay and collect information on/to the boards (which he seems to have already with Kryo/whoever)
Stop writing "I'm out outta here!" posts when he gets frustrated. Just retreat quietly without venting because I think those posts are the ones that are the most demoralizing for the community. Seriously I think most of us believe that given time the big issues will be addressed, but those posts genuinely make me worry that development/patching will stop completely.
Come back whenever he feels like it without being pressured to show up before that time

+1

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 1

There's nothing for you to apologize for. All you did is wake me up to the reality of the Demigod community - it's toxic.

On Demigod, I'll always be merely the messenger of news (good and bad) and frankly, the Demigod community is too toxic for me to want to spend my free time being apart of. Maybe that's because of the early networking issues the game had or because of the genre of the game or the demographic of the players. I don't know. I just know I don't want to be apart of it anymore.

That doesn't mean I won't ever be on anymore. But as long as the forums are brimming with bile (justified or unjustufied) I won't be apart of it.

Meh, the Demigod community is not unlike any I've ever seen. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. You should've seen the Age of Conan and Hellgate London forums. They were way more brutal than this.

Demigod is still a baby I don't expect it to be perfect. I'm used to games requiring a year or so of polish before the bile dies down. If Demigod's multiplayer was a bit more streamlined I think a majority of players would be content.

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haha, what an emo

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Quoting Primal Zed,

reply 2

You'll likely find that any online gaming community tends to be the same. Granted, my first hand experience is limited (to WoW), but it's the nature of the internets.

visits the SINS community. for nearly two years I have been posting there and its a great place to get help with the game, learn about modding, make contact with SD and IC and so much more. i think frogboy nailed it when he mentioned the demographic of the community.

live and learn.

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Unfortunately, I think Brad has gone through, and felt, the reason why most companies refrain from 'direct' customer contact. You get sucked into the 'highs' of people responding to your promises and your deeds. However, when things go 'bad' or the community thinks they do, then they turn on you pretty quick. This is the nature of how people act on the internet. And because you made a personal attempt to discuss things with the community, when they get angry, you end up taking THAT personally too.

A game community simply is never going to 'overlook' any kind of perceived problem with a game, and they are also, as a whole, going to find more problems then exist. Also, the closer you work with a community, the more you realize that making certain parts of it happy, will sometimes anger other parts. I mean, read any thread where Brad asks the community what 'should be done next' and you'll see a lot of different responses.

I think it would behoove both sides, developer and community, to take a step back, maybe two. Once a new patch comes out, some people will be all butterflies and kittens again, and those who didn't see the change they most wanted will become more grumpy. And any balance change will be considered a nerf of someone's favorite strategy, and they whinge like there ain't no tomorrow.

This is life. As sad and Morose as that is.

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This thread reminds me of Caydiem.

Frogboy if you are still reading this many people appreciate all your posts and up to date news. If its too toxic for you just make 1 of the interns post your updates for you. Its what you do that makes SD stand out from the rest.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 1

It's a toxic community here. And that's just the forums. Then, you get into the game and you get people who grief other users in games, swear at them, create pre-mades without identifying what they are.

This is true of every game - DG is not unique. Most games hire community managers who's whole job is to manage the communicty scene. It's analogous to a customer care center. People who are happy with a product never call a customer care center. All communication with the developers is through this person who can filter out all the vitriol.

Where DG excelled is it's honest communication with the community at the outset of the game when it was plagued with connection issues. Without that communication, I would have stopped playing within the week and would never have encouraged others to get the game. I did that with the latest TW game. Played it once and shelved it.

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Some guys had a theory once about why people act like idiots on the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_(webcomic)#John_Gabriel.27s_Greater_Internet_Fuckwad_Theory

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Quoting Zechnophobe,

reply 17

Unfortunately, I think Brad has gone through, and felt, the reason why most companies refrain from 'direct' customer contact. You get sucked into the 'highs' of people responding to your promises and your deeds. However, when things go 'bad' or the community thinks they do, then they turn on you pretty quick. This is the nature of how people act on the internet. And because you made a personal attempt to discuss things with the community, when they get angry, you end up taking THAT personally too.

Agreed. I think that in corresponding frequently with the consumer/player base, Brad became a bit too familiar. In hindsight, a journal post each day was excessive, especially since the game was not being improved nearly as rapidly. I, for one, appreciated Brad's hands-on approach, especially given the launch crisis. However, in interacting so freely and frequently with the forums, he simply became "one of us" and thus subject to whatever temperment that prevailed on the forums on any given day.

Anyhow, here's my 2 cent:

1. Limit journal posts to 1 per week and make sure that they are chock full of information about what SD/GPG plans to do for improving Demigod. Let someone other than the president of Stardock answer random forum threads.

2. Accentuate the positive: I am really surprised that there has not been more hype around the 2 free demigods that are supposedly in the works. Some cool footage or just some more details could help change the tone. Same goes for the planned clan expansion, though I am a bit less interested in this.

3. A grand gesture is needed: It seems to me that Demigod is at a bit of a crossroads. With the imminent release of competitors like League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth, the competition in the Dota genre will increase significantly over the next several months. I personally think that Demigod does have some advantages regarding presentation (esp. graphics and gameplay), timing (it was released before these other games), concept, etc. However, I also think that issues such as the initial botched multiplayer launch, lack of content, and limited single-player appeal will hamper it. Thus, I would suggest either the announcement of a full-blown expansion that will add significant content to the game, or the release of some additional free content followed by an expansion. I suspect that a lot of people would really go for a well-done single-player campaign (along with new demigods and maps) that delves into the backstory of some of the demigods. In any event, some kind of significant, prompt addition of more content (along with fixes) might be what this game needs to better prosper. And get those modding tools out fast!

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greater internet dickwad theory?

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DG's community is probably less toxic than normal for an online computer game. To be surprised at people who take advantage to improve stats (stealth premades), swear online, and grief people is just plain naive. Its the nature of internet gaming. I'm not sure exactly what Frogboy expected, but I dont think that his expectations for the community were inline with the reality of internet gaming.

Part of the recent problem is that some of the toxicity has been getting fed. Frogboy basically sarcastically chewed out some people in other threads, at times for extremely minor stuff (somebody was asking if the game was ever going to work on his computer since he had been waiting for months for it to stop crashing and Frogboy ripped him badly). I mean, he publically stated that we should have no expectation of his posts being "professional" after he ripped somebody. Thats just not smart - you are basically signaling to people that the gloves are off and its time to start flaming.

So really I'm agreeing with people above. Frogboy doesnt have the temperment to deal with an online gaming community for long. Thats not an insult to him - very few people do have that kind of temperment (as people have said). Its probably wisest for him to take the course of action that he seems to be going for now - post some journals and other than that, let underlings deal with the other nonsense if its going to make him upset.

I also agree with Frogboy that his posting in threads really isnt that great a use of his valuable time. It usually just returns things to one of several old discussions that have been had before. The journal entries are extremely valuable though, so those are still a good use of his time.

I also think that Frogboy absolutely fixates on negative comments. If you look at discussions of the patches, the comments in those threads have been overwhelmingly positive. But what he is remembering is the few negative things that are said and not all the positive stuff.

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I have to agree with Muus on this... If Frogboy doesnt want to involve himself in Demigod, when he gets paid to work on it, then why they hell should I have paid for it?

It might be the communities fault that the online play is crap, but its also GPG/SD's fault that it got so bad. They could ban, they could have added/removed features that cause issues, or they could just ignore it and cut their losses... I know for a fact, when I contacted Relic about some issues in the COH community about cheaters, they made changes and banned players. This is on a game with a much more indepth singleplayer mode, and a fairly toxic community over there too.

As it is now, I will probably never buy another Stardock game. Their support for Demigod has been mediocre (Saying the state it was released in, most of the "support" has been them fixing issues) and the support for SOSE has been average, better then EA, but not as good as they claim.

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As it is now, I will probably never buy another Stardock game. Their support for Demigod has been mediocre (Saying the state it was released in, most of the "support" has been them fixing issues)

What other support do you want, if not fixing issues that mke the game more playable? Seriously here...

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